State Seal Calendar

Meeting Proceedings for March 23, 1998 (File size=400K)


          1                        STATE OF FLORIDA



                                  COMMISSION MEETING



              DATE:                   March 23, 1998
              TIME:                   Commenced at  9:00 a.m.
         11                           Concluded at  5:00 p.m.

         12   PLACE:                  The Senate Chamber
                                      The Capitol
         13                           Tallahassee, Florida

         14   REPORTED BY:            KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
                                      MONA L. WHIDDON
         15                           Court Reporters
                                      Division of Administrative Hearings
         16                           The DeSoto Building
                                      1230 Apalachee Parkway
         17                           Tallahassee, Florida










          1                           APPEARANCES


          3   CARLOS ALFONSO
              CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
          4   ANTONIO L. ARGIZ
              PAT BARTON
          6   ROBERT M. BROCHIN
          7   KEN CONNOR
              CHRIS CORR
              VALERIE EVANS
              PAUL HAWKES
              DICK LANGLEY
         13   JOHN F. LOWNDES
              STANLEY MARSHALL
         14   JACINTA MATHIS
              JON LESTER MILLS
         15   FRANK MORSANI
         16   CARLOS PLANAS (ABSENT)
              JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
              SENATOR JIM SCOTT
         18   H. T. SMITH
              ALAN C. SUNDBERG
              PAUL WEST
              STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
              IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)





          1                           PROCEEDINGS

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We could go ahead with the

          3        formalities if that is agreeable.  Let's go ahead and

          4        have our opening and then we'll temporarily recess

          5        until Style and Drafting returns to the chamber.

          6             Would everybody please check in, please.

          7             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

          8        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

          9        commissioners indicate your presence.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We need everybody to sign in

         11        so we can have the opening.  We now have a quorum, I

         12        think.

         13             Madam Secretary, I think -- wait a minute, we

         14        have one more signing in.  All right.  If all

         15        unauthorized persons would please leave the chamber.

         16        And if you haven't indicated your presence, please do

         17        so.

         18             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.

         19             (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If you would come

         21        to order, please.  If everybody could take their

         22        seats, we will have the opening prayer.  We're going

         23        to have the opening prayer if everybody could -- would

         24        everybody please rise.  This morning our opening

         25        prayer is given by Reverend Mark Broadhead of


          1        Fellowship Baptist Church in Tallahassee.  Reverend,

          2        welcome.

          3             REVEREND BROADHEAD:  Thank you.  Would you join

          4        me in prayer, please?

          5             Eternal God, we come before you this morning with

          6        great expectations for this day.  Already there have

          7        been meetings, public and private, and conversations

          8        that will help shape the course of many people's

          9        lives.  Already there is a sense of anticipation.  You

         10        have called these men and women to a special task and

         11        grant them your guidance.  As discussions and debates

         12        go on this day, be present and let your presence be

         13        known.

         14             We ask that because there are so many needs you

         15        will help keep self-interest in check for the good of

         16        the greater people.  We ask that your grace flow

         17        through each person who will be a part of the process.

         18        Let your peace be known to all who will be affected by

         19        today's decisions.  As this day progresses, we pray

         20        that you will keep minds alert, tempers in check, and

         21        senses of humor alive and fresh.  Allow for creativity

         22        which is exciting and contagious.  For these things we

         23        pray to your honor and glory.  Amen.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The pledge of allegiance this

         25        morning will be led by Laurel McDaniel and Christine


          1        Kretschman both of Tallahassee.  Laurel is the

          2        daughter of our Secretary.  Would you ladies come and

          3        lead us in the pledge.

          4             (Pledge of Allegiance.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're going to be

          6        in temporary recess until the members of Style and

          7        Drafting Committee return to the chamber.  Keep the

          8        floor secure, please.  I would -- before you break

          9        out, let me introduce three pages -- other pages that

         10        are with us this morning.  They are Brandon J. Miller

         11        who's in seventh grade from Maitland Middle School.

         12        May R. Dewitt who is from the seventh grade in

         13        Maitland Middle School.  And Yokinta Camille Mathis

         14        who's in eighth grade from Hiwassee Christian Academy,

         15        would you stand.  You may tell from her familiar name

         16        that she's the daughter of our commissioner.  And

         17        Benita Thomas who is also with us this morning.  And

         18        we're delighted to have you.  We'll stand in recess

         19        and the chamber will be secure.

         20             (Brief recess.)

         21             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

         22        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

         23        commissioners indicate your presence.

         24             (Pause.)

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's see if we could --


          1        somebody check in the back and around to see if we can

          2        get everybody in the chamber.  If you haven't

          3        registered your presence, please do so.  (Pause.)

          4        Okay.  We're already about 50 minutes late getting

          5        started.  I wonder if everybody could come on and sign

          6        in.  We're still missing -- I know they're here, I've

          7        seen them.

          8             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

          9        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

         10        commissioners indicate your presence.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If you'll come to

         12        order, please.  Commissioners, I wonder if you'll take

         13        your seats, please.  Will everybody take their seats,

         14        please.  Thank you.  Everybody is seated.  I wonder if

         15        you'll give me your attention for a minute.  I'd like

         16        to make a few remarks before we start.

         17             This has been a great experience and a wonderful

         18        experience for all of us.  I know it has for me.  This

         19        group to me has become not only collegial but we've

         20        become friends and we've become respectful of each

         21        other and we've debated the issues from time to time

         22        with great respect for each other and we've done a

         23        tremendous job in addressing our problems.

         24             I've had help as Chairman from each one of you

         25        from time to time.  I've had great input from each one


          1        of you.  My task as Chairman was to make this as open

          2        a group as possible, to make our work as open as

          3        possible, and to address it in the manner in which I

          4        believe we have addressed it.

          5             Last week we completed what was a monumental

          6        task.  We reviewed and proposed many proposals.

          7        Likewise, I want to tell you that our Committee on

          8        Style and Drafting has received these approved

          9        proposals and they've been developing groupings for

         10        the consideration of the commission.  They've worked

         11        long and hard.  They worked yesterday, they worked

         12        this morning starting at 7:00 and they've done a great

         13        job and I think we all owe them a word of great

         14        thanks.

         15             Before we advance to their report, I believe it

         16        would be productive for me, as Chairman, to discuss

         17        the process with you.  I've had several members voice

         18        differing opinions relating to the effect of last

         19        week's voting.  The effect of this week's voting and

         20        the effect of adopting or rejecting a grouping

         21        recommendation of the committee, Style and Drafting.

         22        I think these are valid concerns and should be

         23        discussed before we advance to specific proposals.

         24             In addition, it's no secret that at least one of

         25        the issues, Reapportionment Commission, has received a


          1        great deal of attention by the press and I would

          2        presume by many others.  Stories have been written

          3        that I don't necessarily agree with discussing things

          4        like hardball politics, arm-twisting threats and this

          5        sort of thing.  I don't put a great deal of stock in

          6        this because I know the people here and I know the

          7        people that might be accused of doing such a thing and

          8        I would not accept that as an accurate description.

          9             I'm sure we've had many people express their

         10        concerns one way or the other on this issue.  I know I

         11        have.  And let's prove that this business about how

         12        we're affected by outside influences at the last

         13        minute after all these votes is wrong.

         14             I think we can arise above politics.  We can

         15        arise above, as we have many times, other

         16        considerations, maybe some of our own personal

         17        connections that cause us concerns from time to time.

         18        And let's show the merits of this process in an open,

         19        civil, and democratic manner and prove that this

         20        commission continues to stand for what is right, not

         21        what is wrong with or for government.

         22             I want to add to that that I kind of feel like

         23        our group that we've become sort of a family.  And

         24        we've been a pretty functional family for the most

         25        part.  And it's not good for us to even consider


          1        becoming a dysfunctional family at this late date and

          2        I don't believe that we will.

          3             But like in every family, mine, yours, and

          4        everybody else's there are great disagreements from

          5        time to time.  And when the majority rules then we all

          6        accept it and we go our way and we still are family

          7        when we finish.

          8             And I know that some siblings that we have here

          9        may have really taken issue with some of the votes

         10        that we had as a majority as 22 votes and whatever.

         11        And for every one there is another one that all of us

         12        in some form or fashion as siblings lost the support

         13        of our other siblings.  So as brothers and sisters

         14        here working together as a family, I hope today that

         15        we can proceed in that spirit and I know that we will.

         16        And I commend to you the conduct and the way that we

         17        have done this.

         18             Relating to the process, there are two main

         19        issues that have been raised with me.  The first issue

         20        relates to the effect of our votes last week.  I

         21        believe that we took our votes last Tuesday,

         22        March 17th, we took final votes on individual

         23        proposals.  In short, we sent to Style and Drafting a

         24        final list or proposal that this commission voted they

         25        wanted to put on the ballot.  The only question


          1        remaining is the form of these proposals that they

          2        would appear on the ballot, grouped or individual.

          3             To be thorough and fair, however, I asked

          4        Commissioner Barkdull to review our adopted rules,

          5        review the February 24th, 1998 report of the committee

          6        and calendar and review all the transcripts of our

          7        proceedings that might relate to this issue.  He

          8        prepared a memorandum summarizing the salient points

          9        of the transcript.  And I believe that it supports the

         10        desire of the commission to narrow issues and to take

         11        final votes at the meeting last Tuesday which we did.

         12             Based on that review, it appears that these

         13        individual proposals have been ratified by the

         14        commission and for those members who wish to defeat a

         15        proposal now, even now, two options exist.  One, make

         16        a motion to reconsider a proposal.  My -- I think the

         17        rules provide, I can't find anything otherwise, that

         18        on a motion to reconsider it would have to be made by

         19        a person that voted with the prevailing side and it

         20        would require a majority vote for the commission to

         21        reconsider it.  And if that's the case, we would then

         22        reconsider.  You may offer an amendment.  And one

         23        other way that you could do it would be offer an

         24        amendment to just get rid of the proposal and that, of

         25        course, would take 22 affirmative votes to do that.


          1             The second issue raised relates to the groupings

          2        and the effect of groupings not receiving 22 votes as

          3        recommended by -- on the matter recommended by the

          4        committee.  I requested Commissioner Barkdull review

          5        our rules on this matter.  At the time we adopted Rule

          6        5, it's interesting to note that the exact issue was

          7        discussed by this commission.  Specifically it was

          8        determined that if the recommended groupings are not

          9        adopted by 22 votes, the individual proposals would go

         10        on the ballot as separate proposals and/or would be

         11        available for subsequent groupings which we can still

         12        do.

         13             Like the discussion last July, I would find that

         14        recommended groupings are recommendations.  If

         15        ratified by 22 votes, that is the grouping.  In the

         16        alternative, if defeated, the groupings fall apart.

         17        And after the groupings fall apart, the individual

         18        proposals then are placed on the ballot on a less

         19        group with something else by 22 votes in some other

         20        manner.

         21             Relating to ballot language and title, according

         22        to Rule 5.42, it's the obligation of the Committee on

         23        Style and Drafting to prepare ballot language.  Style

         24        and Drafting Committee has purposely delayed

         25        developing some language, I understand, it may not be


          1        altogether true, but it may be.  Since that time the

          2        committee's carefully reviewed applicable case law and

          3        prepared ballot language and ballot titles.  That's

          4        what they were doing this morning.

          5             I believe that the commission can adopt and amend

          6        the ballot language by a simple majority vote.  Like

          7        earlier votes, this language was not available to them

          8        until today and it only seems fair to allow

          9        commissioners, by a simple majority vote, to amend

         10        ballot language.  This ruling would be consistent with

         11        our treatment of amendment to proposals when they were

         12        first considered by the commission.

         13             Everything that they're sending back to us has

         14        been voted on at least three times favorably and

         15        received 22 votes most of the time and certainly last

         16        time.  And therefore, we have voted three to five

         17        times on these amendments.  I think it's unreasonable

         18        to expect our family to stay a family if we just keep

         19        voting as long as one member or two members or less

         20        than a majority want to keep voting.

         21             Therefore, I suggest that we proceed in the

         22        manner that I've discussed.  And I would hope that

         23        that would meet with the approval of the commission

         24        and I would hope that we can proceed and proceed in a

         25        manner which I've outlined to you.


          1             Commissioner Morsani.

          2             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  I rise this morning with a

          3        heavy heart.  Last week I almost resigned from this

          4        commission and I thought about it and I decided late

          5        in the day last Tuesday not to do so.  I did not, nor

          6        many people in this room, campaign for this position.

          7        I received a call about 8:00 one night from President

          8        Jennings asking me if I would be on the Constitution

          9        Revision Commission.  I said, I don't know anything

         10        about the Constitution, I'll have to think about it.

         11        She said, I would encourage you to come on.  So I

         12        thought about it and I decided to do so.

         13             Ladies and gentlemen, Commissioners, I had never

         14        met Toni Jennings, I had never given a dime to one of

         15        her campaigns.  I have never written her a letter

         16        about supporting of any piece of legislation.  And I

         17        will say to this day, President Jennings has never

         18        asked me to vote one way or the other on any issue

         19        since June of last year.

         20             You know, in the automobile business we have

         21        collision repair shops.  Many years ago when I started

         22        the first one, and a lot of people come in and you

         23        have your estimate and they want you to cover their

         24        deductible.  So I instructed my body shop manager at

         25        that time, and I was a service manager in 1962 in Fort


          1        Lauderdale, Florida.  I said when a person wants you

          2        to cover their deductible, you say, Sir or Ma'am, if a

          3        man will steal for you he'll steal from you.  And if

          4        you're going to ask me to steal for you, then you

          5        automatically think I'm going to steal from you.  We

          6        don't run our business that way.

          7             I think there is a correlation between politics

          8        and business.  Ms. Marilyn Evans-Jones said that there

          9        would be less politics -- taking politics out of the

         10        reapportionment by a commission.  Whether I'm for it

         11        or not is not the issue.  The issue is, we didn't

         12        take, unfortunately, politics out of this commission.

         13        A week ago last Tuesday, I thought we had.

         14             But as I started listening to whispers last

         15        Tuesday about what had been going on, no one talked to

         16        me, no one called me, and that's good, I'm glad no one

         17        did because I probably wouldn't have talked to them

         18        anyway because I'm not easily swayed by anybody.

         19        That's good or bad depending on how you assess me as

         20        an individual and my value system.

         21             You know, I think it was either Disraeli, it

         22        could Churchill.  One of the back benchers came to

         23        Disraeli and said they were going to change their

         24        party and he said to them, You change your party for

         25        principles or principles for party.


          1             I think what we've done, unfortunately, in the

          2        last ten days is change our principles and I'm very,

          3        very disturbed about that.  I thought for ten months

          4        we had not allowed this to happen in this body.  And

          5        as an automobile mechanic, I'm kind of disappointed

          6        because that's not how I run my business and haven't

          7        for over 30 years.

          8             So I think we have, numerous times during these

          9        debates, we have said the public didn't have

         10        confidence in the legislators because of their

         11        walking -- their straddling the fences.  Ladies and

         12        gentlemen, I think that they can accuse us of the same

         13        thing, of being political in this process in the last

         14        ten days and I'm extremely disturbed.  I don't think

         15        that was our mission.

         16             I thought our mission was to do what was right

         17        for the 15 million people in this great state.  So to

         18        paraphrase, President Kennedy when he said, Not what

         19        my country can do for me, but what I can do for my

         20        country.  I think we are not doing what's in the best

         21        interest on some of these issues for our state of

         22        Florida and I'm disturbed.  I had to tell you.  I

         23        apologize for taking your time but that's not what

         24        we're about.  That's not right.  And we're doing the

         25        wrong thing.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Thank you, Commissioner

          2        Morsani.  Commissioner Scott.

          3             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  I personally agree with what

          4        Commissioner Morsani has said.  And what I want to

          5        focus back on is where we started and the rules that

          6        we had.  And so far in Rule 5, if you look at it, the

          7        Style and Drafting Committee shall review all

          8        proposals receiving approval of a majority of the

          9        commission and shall prepare recommended ballot

         10        language.

         11             Well we changed majority to mean receiving 22

         12        votes because we were trying to eliminate some

         13        proposals.  Style and Drafting may recommend

         14        amendments and may recommend the groupings.  A

         15        proposal on consideration -- and this has not been

         16        changed -- after having been disposed of, may be

         17        amended or grouped by a vote of at least 22 members of

         18        the commission, that's fine.  That's 5.3 following

         19        what the Chairman said.  And I do appreciate the tone

         20        and the tenor of his remarks.

         21             But 5.4 says final adoption of a proposal shall

         22        require a vote of at least 22 members.  Now, let me

         23        try to get this in some perspective for you.  There is

         24        a statute, and I know you've all heard about it, we've

         25        been dealing with it that says, for example, there has


          1        to be 75 words in the ballot summary and that there

          2        has to be a title.

          3             Now, that statute also says that the wording of

          4        the substance of the amendment and the ballot title to

          5        appear shall be embodied, shall be embodied, in the

          6        joint resolution which would be in the Legislature or

          7        in the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal.

          8        So therefore, acting under that, Style and Drafting

          9        has come to you and will present to you proposals that

         10        have in them, embodied in them, and there's been

         11        several court cases interpreting this, the ballot

         12        summary and the title.

         13             And I submit to you in a sense of where we were,

         14        the change we made that was made by several of us on

         15        the Rules Committee in the back, in no time did

         16        anybody, and I'm talking fairness now, we're going to

         17        have to debate this for a long time.  No one

         18        anticipated that we were abolishing 5.4 which says

         19        final approval of the proposal which will have in it

         20        all this would require 22 votes.

         21             Now, that aside, several members I know on many

         22        of these proposals, could be the firearms, could be

         23        the primary -- open primary or whatever appropriate

         24        words to describe that.  I think people thought

         25        whether it's grouped or not grouped, whether it's


          1        grouped or not grouped, they would have a final vote

          2        on it.

          3             Now, let me tell you the effect of what is -- of

          4        Judge Barkdull's letter.  We have, or we may have,

          5        conflicting proposals, directly conflicting proposals.

          6        And under his letter, we might have grouped them.

          7        Let's take the elections package.  We might have

          8        grouped them.  If we separate them and we take the

          9        position that both of them -- because they were

         10        previously single proposals approved -- go to the

         11        ballot, we are then not really doing justice to our

         12        final work product.

         13             So I would urge the members to reflect on this.

         14        I would urge the Chair, prior to making some ruling on

         15        it, that it be explored fully because otherwise I know

         16        people who voted for.  I know one member at least who

         17        voted for, and this is not the apportionment, that

         18        thought they were voting for it but when it was

         19        finally back before them they would have a chance to

         20        vote on it because a grouping is one, really, when you

         21        think about it.  The decision to group or not to

         22        group.

         23             But I just want to tell you that this, whatever

         24        we do here is going to be challenged as things have

         25        been challenged so far.  In one of the subjects we're


          1        dealing with, the previous initiative proposal, was

          2        thrown off the ballot.

          3             Another instance in this case, back in '82, a

          4        legislative proposal was thrown off the ballot because

          5        the ballot language in summary was not appropriate,

          6        both of those cases.  One was the Marine Fisheries'

          7        issue.  I think the other was lobbyists and financial

          8        disclosure.  So this is not just a simple issue.

          9             That's not to mention the question of the

         10        fairness, regardless of the issue, of having final --

         11        there's not 22 votes, let's say we find out we made a

         12        big mistake and now two-thirds or whatever.  Whatever

         13        number.  I just think it's not the way to -- for us to

         14        proceed.  And I agree with the statement of the

         15        family.  And, Commissioner Morsani, I thought about

         16        resigning, and not just last week, several times I

         17        thought about it.  And one of the reasons I didn't was

         18        because of the people on here and the people that I've

         19        gotten to know and some of whom I've known and

         20        respected for years.

         21             But I would urge you in that sense to consider

         22        whether you really want to have something that may not

         23        enjoy a support of 22 members, recognizing that we

         24        have to put on a proposal that has to embody this

         25        ballot language which we just have gotten recently,


          1        regardless of the reasons, in the last two or three

          2        days over the weekend that you want to think carefully

          3        about going forward without requiring that -- the

          4        final vote of 22 votes.  So since we're discussing

          5        this, and I'm glad you are, Mr. Chairman, in

          6        connection with all the issues, I just wanted to make

          7        those points because we've been thinking about it for

          8        some time.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Question, Commissioner Scott?

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioners, your

         11        concern, as you expressed, the vote that it would take

         12        to establish the ballot language, is that the point

         13        you were trying to get at?

         14             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  No, Commissioner Barkdull.

         15        What I'm getting at is the ballot language, the ballot

         16        title and the ballot language has to be embodied in

         17        the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal and

         18        that's what we've tried to do and it's --

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  What I'm getting to --

         20             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  I'm not finished.  So my

         21        point is that under our rules the final vote is when

         22        that's done and it's right in sequence in Rule 5.5.

         23        There's .1, .2 that the Chairman referred to and .5.

         24        And the reason for that is that's what we have to do.

         25        And if we don't do that, I want to urge you that we're


          1        subjecting every proposal, everything we've done, and

          2        a lot of good things, to a significant problem.

          3             And it's unnecessary and it's done in an effort,

          4        I believe, not to simplify but to affect some

          5        proposals.  And I don't think that's right.  I think

          6        it's going to be, perhaps, illegal.  It's going to be

          7        up to the courts or whoever.  But it is not -- I mean,

          8        I think that when we get this and we agree on the

          9        ballot language and the proposal you're going to have

         10        to have a final vote.  That's what this is about and

         11        that's the point I was trying to make.

         12             And you can look at the statute, it's 101.161,

         13        Commissioner Smith, and others, whoever wants to take

         14        a look at it.  It's very clear.  And I think that it's

         15        basically -- each one of these is now.  Whether it's

         16        by itself, whether it's a grouping or not, it's now a

         17        proposal with the ballot language embodied in it and I

         18        think it's going to require the approval of this

         19        commission as it goes forward.  You can't just say,

         20        Well, we're going to stick this on it and stick that

         21        on it but yet you can't revote any of it because that

         22        can be critical to the whole issue.

         23             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, Commissioner Scott,

         24        would you continue to yield for something?  I agree

         25        with you that we have ballot language to be


          1        considered.  But what concerns me is, until we know

          2        what the groupings are, how can the Style and Drafting

          3        Committee come back to the commission with any ballot

          4        language because until they know what's going to be in

          5        the groups, they can't prepare the ballot language?

          6             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Judge Barkdull, that is not

          7        what we've been operating on and we have prepared the

          8        ballot language and that's what we've been doing on

          9        Sundays and meeting -- some meetings late at night and

         10        whatever and all day, most of the day yesterday,

         11        that's what we've been doing.

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, Commissioner Scott,

         13        if something is pulled out of the grouping then

         14        certainly that's going to impact the proposed ballot

         15        language.

         16             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  That's right and then what

         17        would happen is we would fix it again and pass it

         18        again just like we do every legislative measure,

         19        every --

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'm not disagreeing with

         21        you.  I just wanted to point out that when we break up

         22        a grouping that's been recommended by Style and

         23        Drafting and you-all have worked and put the ballot

         24        language together, if there is something pulled out of

         25        a grouping, obviously it's going to have to be


          1        reconsidered by the Style and Drafting Committee for

          2        ballot language.

          3             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Absolutely.  And that could

          4        happen today and we would go resubmit but it would

          5        still come back to you as a proposal.  And maybe we

          6        got six things in the elections and we take three of

          7        them out and put them in another, but it still has to

          8        be finally voted.  Otherwise, what you would be doing

          9        is just totally giving to six of us, and I don't want

         10        it, I'm going to tell you, the authority to do ballot

         11        language that could mess up everything we have and

         12        that's not right.  The commission has to vote on the

         13        proposal with the ballot language.  That's my point

         14        and that's what the statute requires.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I think we're on

         16        different pages.

         17             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Then fine.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Langley and then

         19        Commissioner Wetherington is next.

         20             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Thank you.  First, I'd

         21        like to thank Style and Drafting for the many, many

         22        hours that they've put into this.  And secondly, I'd

         23        like to thank the Chairman for not putting me on that

         24        committee.  Does everybody have their blue manual?

         25        Their little blue manual that has the rules in it?


          1        I'd like to lead you through the rules.  This is a

          2        family, if you want to call it that, or it's supposed

          3        to be a level playing field and all those good things,

          4        those cliches that we use.

          5             But we're also bound by the rules that we adopted

          6        and that we've amended as we've gone along and I would

          7        like to take you through the rules briefly to

          8        substantiate my position of where we are and the

          9        position that everything that goes on that ballot must

         10        have had 22 affirmative votes before it goes on there.

         11             First, point one.  Where are the proposals now?

         12        Who knows the answer to that one?  The proposals now

         13        are in Style and Drafting Committee.  Anybody

         14        disagree?  If they are in Style and Drafting Committee

         15        and we adjourn today, what happens to the proposals?

         16        Nothing.  They die in committee.  So if they are in

         17        committee, how do they get to be a final product of

         18        the body?  They have to be presented as is done by

         19        Style and Drafting in this proposal before you and

         20        they have to be voted out by this commission.  And by

         21        our rules, they have to be voted out by 22 positive

         22        votes.

         23             If you look at -- and by the way, letters written

         24        by the Rules Chairman, in all deference, are not

         25        rules, they are letters written by the rules chairman.


          1        And as a matter of fact, the Rules Committee has never

          2        met nor asked to meet to consider any of these things.

          3        These have been ex parte from the rules between the

          4        Chairman and the rules chairman.

          5             But anyway if you look at the letter from

          6        March 13th which I think accurately capsulize what we

          7        voted on February 24th, Paragraph 3 of that letter,

          8        Proposals receiving 22 votes are forwarded to the

          9        Style and Drafting Committee.  That's where they are

         10        going.  That's where they are.

         11             Paragraph 5, Proposals receiving 22 or more votes

         12        in late February will be referred to the Style and

         13        Drafting Committee, that's where these proposals are.

         14        Though they cannot, by the very fact that they are

         15        lodged in committee have been finally voted upon.

         16        Okay, let's go on.

         17             Under Rule 5.4.  A proposal on consideration,

         18        Paragraph 3 -- that's on Page 17 of your blue

         19        manual -- after having been disposed of by Style and

         20        Drafting Committee, none of these yet have been

         21        disposed of.  Some of them will not be disposed of

         22        after we get through today because they have to go

         23        back to either change ballot language or maybe to

         24        regroup, so they are still not disposed of.  And if

         25        they are not disposed of, they cannot have been


          1        finally voted upon.

          2             Paragraph 5 -- pardon me, Paragraph 4, which

          3        Senator Scott read, requires for a final adoption,

          4        shall require 22 votes.  Remember also Rule 212

          5        requires that the Style and Drafting Committee shall

          6        report from its committee, which they have done, and

          7        recommend to the body any amendments or groupings or

          8        what else.  So again, the point is they are still in

          9        Style and Drafting Committee.

         10             Another thing that's very important,

         11        Mr. Chairman.  In the discussion, part of the

         12        transcript that wasn't read was when you were asked in

         13        the discussion with Senator Scott when you said he was

         14        asking you about the voting and you said, That's

         15        correct, any grouping will require 22 votes.  The

         16        proposals and the groupings will all require the same

         17        vote, 22 votes.

         18             Now, Mr. Chairman, if you've stated -- and I

         19        guess you knew that that was a final vote on many of

         20        these proposals -- I very reluctantly remind you to

         21        read Rule 1.7 on Page 8 which says, The Chairman shall

         22        vote on final passage of all proposals.  Well the

         23        Chairman did not vote on 21 out of 29 of these

         24        proposals that were passed last week.  So surely,

         25        Mr. Chairman, you did not think that was a final vote


          1        on those either.  There is another thing to consider.

          2             A lot of votes, some of these things you care

          3        about, some of them you don't care a lot about and

          4        some of them you just assume go away, there is no

          5        question about it.  But as we narrow down the issues

          6        that are going to be put on this ballot for the

          7        15 million people of the state of Florida to look at,

          8        aren't some of you thinking, You know, that one is all

          9        right.  But if I had to vote for just five, I wouldn't

         10        vote for that one.  But how are we going to know how

         11        many proposals are going to be available until we know

         12        how many come out of Style and Drafting, how they're

         13        grouped and all the other things about them that you

         14        can narrow down the number of these that you would

         15        actually support?  We don't know yet.

         16             Right now we have ten and I don't agree with some

         17        of the groupings.  I don't agree with putting

         18        religious freedom in with all these controversial

         19        things that are in that same grouping.  I don't agree

         20        with putting some of the very highly contradictory

         21        crossover primary elections nonpartisan school boards

         22        in with ballot access and voter age of 18.  I mean,

         23        you're going to kill some good ones for the bad ones

         24        and vice versa.  So until you see all those, you

         25        really don't know which final proposals you may want


          1        to vote on.

          2             But again in summary, Mr. Chairman, by your

          3        voting or lack thereof I think it was obvious that

          4        last week was not the final vote and that would be my

          5        suggestion to the Chair.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Wetherington.

          7             COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON:  Well, I would like to

          8        say that I have to respectfully disagree with

          9        Commissioner Morsani who I think is a wonderful man, a

         10        man of abundant goodwill, but I don't believe that any

         11        member of this commission, that I'm aware of, has done

         12        anything but take the higher road with respect to our

         13        responsibilities.

         14             There may be some people outside of this

         15        commission that have called people and tried to put

         16        pressure on members of the commission.  I've heard of

         17        some of that.  And nobody has called me but I've heard

         18        they called some other people and I'm sure they have

         19        because a lot of people may have a lot at stake here

         20        today.  But I don't think that that reflects the

         21        conduct of any member of the commission.

         22             Now, it's very clear that there are still people

         23        that still oppose some of those proposals and that

         24        always raises a problem as to how long or if we're

         25        ever going to get to a final vote.  But nonetheless,


          1        they are making parliamentary objections and rules

          2        objections, which they have a right to make.  And if

          3        they are right, they should prevail on them because we

          4        have to be bound by the rules.  They obviously feel as

          5        strongly on some of these proposals as I do.

          6             If I've lost something, I'm not crying over it.

          7        There's been some ones that I've had defeated.  Nobody

          8        has heard me cry over them and you've never heard me

          9        keep pushing them on and on again.  I don't believe in

         10        doing that.  I mean, once it's voted on, as far as I'm

         11        concerned, if I've lost, I lost, although I may feel

         12        strongly for it.

         13             But my overall comment really is that we need to

         14        do what is correct under the rules and I -- my feeling

         15        is that everyone that I know on this commission has

         16        acted in a -- basically an exemplary fashion.  They

         17        may have pushed hard for things they believe in, but

         18        then again, I think people should.  And I would like

         19        to say that I'm very proud and privileged to be a

         20        member of the commission.  I think it has the same

         21        high standards and ideals that it had when I began

         22        with.  I've heard some disturbing things but not by

         23        members of the commission, by people outside, and

         24        there is always going to be some of that.  So I'm

         25        simply reaffirming my belief in the commission.


          1             And if it takes a little longer to get to the

          2        right result on these issues, we take a little longer

          3        and wherever it leads us, we go.  I'm still thinking

          4        about the things that have been said and we're looking

          5        at the statutes, and I'm satisfied in the end we will

          6        follow the rules and we will vote our consciences.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Thank you.  Commissioner

          8        Hawkes.

          9             COMMISSIONER HAWKES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I

         10        think it's fair to say that throughout this process

         11        when we have used the term "grouping," we were

         12        referring to exactly what and how it would appear on

         13        the ballot and we consistently from the very

         14        beginning, from the very first time we meant, even

         15        before we started the public hearing process, to the

         16        very first time we met when we started the debate in

         17        chambers before the committee process and even when we

         18        talked about trying to narrow it down so that Style

         19        and Drafting wouldn't have to look at so many

         20        proposals that probably had no chance to succeed.

         21             When we refer to "grouping," we're referring to

         22        what and how it would actually finally appear on the

         23        ballot.  And I would submit that a grouping of one is,

         24        in fact, a grouping.  Should the firearm proposal be

         25        on the ballot all by itself?  Well, if we take Style


          1        and Drafting's position on that and we vote 22, then

          2        it is.

          3             If we don't believe that it ought to be on the

          4        ballot by itself then we end up taking Style and

          5        Drafting's position and it is.  So we really have no

          6        say on that particular item if, in fact, we don't

          7        define grouping in a realistic way that it refers to

          8        how items will appear on the ballot and what exactly

          9        will appear on the ballot.  And if we don't get 22

         10        votes on how and what appears on the ballot, then that

         11        item doesn't appear on the ballot.  And I think that

         12        we have all understood that to be the rule from the

         13        very beginning of this process and we're not stuck on

         14        having 36 different ballot questions because we all

         15        believe that the groupings ought to be a little bit

         16        different or something along those lines.

         17             We agree with the product that comes out of here

         18        so that we're united to the public and we feel that we

         19        have done what the consensus and that is the

         20        betterment of Florida.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Connor.

         22             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         23             Someone once said that one man's larceny is just

         24        another man's redistributing of the wealth.  In other

         25        words, it's all a matter of perspective.  And I would


          1        confess that when you folks voted against my proposals

          2        I've often felt you've been dealing politically.  And

          3        when you've supported them, I felt generally that you

          4        were doing the principle thing.

          5             And I would just say, Commissioner Morsani, with

          6        reference to your comment, that it's my intention to

          7        credit every member of this commission with ultimate

          8        good faith.  And the fact that my proposal may be

          9        being gored does not mean that I attribute sinister

         10        political motivations to you but rather that we just

         11        simply have an honest difference of opinion.  And I

         12        think we need to be very careful about impugning one

         13        another's motives in this process particularly when

         14        this body has served at its own time and its own

         15        expense at great sacrifice.  I'm convinced that people

         16        are well motivated.

         17             With respect to this rules issue, I want to thank

         18        the Chairman for bringing this matter up in the manner

         19        in which he did.  Goodness knows, we've had an anxious

         20        weekend as people have wondered what direction in

         21        which we were going to go and how this was going to be

         22        handled.  And I commend you, Mr. Chairman, for just

         23        simply laying all the cards on the table and giving us

         24        this opportunity.

         25             As we approach this issue, I would remind you of


          1        the words of Thomas Jefferson when he commented on the

          2        Federal Constitution.  And he made this observation,

          3        he says, Our particular protection is in that we have

          4        a written Constitution.  Let us not make it a blank

          5        sheet of paper by construction.

          6             Ladies and gentlemen, I would submit to you that

          7        we have written rules that we can look to that tell us

          8        how we ought to conduct our affairs.  That protects

          9        the minority and that protects the majority and it

         10        gives us a vehicle for the conduct of the orderly

         11        procession of our business.  And I would observe,

         12        along with Commissioner Langley, that when one looks

         13        at Rule 5, we see a sequential process that's set up.

         14        As we look at Rule 5.4 (3), we see the natural

         15        sequence taking place, a proposal on consideration

         16        after having been disposed of by the Style and

         17        Drafting Committee, maybe amended or grouped by a vote

         18        of at least 22 members of the commission.

         19             There's no doubt about the fact that Style and

         20        Drafting has not finally disposed of any proposal

         21        until we get it.  Indeed, they've been meeting on

         22        Saturday, on Sunday, on Monday morning.  One can

         23        scarcely maintain that Style and Drafting has finally

         24        disposed of that until we get their work product

         25        today.


          1             And then, in the natural sequence of things, we

          2        come to Item No. 4, 5.44, final adoption of a proposal

          3        shall require a vote of at least 22 members of the

          4        commission.

          5             Now, I would suggest to you that the term "final"

          6        means the last act, the very last thing you do.  In

          7        other words, there is nothing yet that remains to be

          8        done.  And I would submit to you, with all due

          9        respect, that we don't have to look to any memoranda,

         10        we don't have to look to any transcripts of remarks

         11        that have been made or anything else.  Final simply

         12        means final.  We have a rule that helps us understand

         13        the direction which we're going.

         14             Now, candidly I say this with some trepidation.

         15        Knowing that the proposal that meant the most to me

         16        only passed by 22 votes.  In fact, people were calling

         17        me Slim afterwards and I appreciate how very much at

         18        risk that proposal may be if it wasn't and ain't

         19        already final, it's hanging by a thread.  Well, as

         20        Commissioner Wetherington had said, You win some and

         21        you lose some.  And goodness knows, I think I probably

         22        lost more than I've won, but so be it.  I don't credit

         23        you with political motivations in this process.

         24             We have some very fine rules that were carefully

         25        considered on the front end.  Historically we, as


          1        Americans, have said, We want to be a nation of laws.

          2        Let's be a body that abides by the rules.  If we want

          3        to change the rules, folks, we have a process by which

          4        we can change the rules.  But let's not engage in any

          5        gymnastics that would put our rules asunder.

          6             I heard, frankly, some laughter when Commissioner

          7        Langley made the comment about the role of the Chair

          8        in the vote.  But I would just simply direct your

          9        attention to the plain language of that rule unless

         10        you think that be in jest or be some kind of absurd

         11        proposition, Rule 1.7, The Commission Chair shall not

         12        be required to vote in ordinary proceedings except on

         13        final passage of any proposed revision or part thereof

         14        of the Constitution.

         15             So folks, I don't think we have an ambiguity in

         16        our rules.  I don't think we have to look to extrinsic

         17        documents to try to figure out what it was that we

         18        intended to do.  I think the rules are very clear on

         19        their face and I think we just ought to follow the

         20        rules in the same way that we expect the people and

         21        ourselves to abide by the law and the Constitution.

         22        Thank you.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull

         24        followed by Commissioner Smith.

         25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, Members of


          1        the Commission, I just want to call your attention to

          2        the fact that we altered Rule 5 on February 24th

          3        following a report of the Rules Committee in which we

          4        established that process, and it's found on Page 187

          5        of the journal of these proceedings.  I'm not going to

          6        read all of it, but it talks about what would happen

          7        on March 17th and it says, If a proposal is not

          8        brought before a revote, the vote taken during the

          9        week of February 23rd and 27th is a vote on the

         10        matter.

         11             All the proposals with 22 or greater votes are

         12        recommitted to Style and Drafting for grouping.  All

         13        other proposals are defeated.  B, if a proposal is

         14        brought for revote at the request of five members, the

         15        proposal is before the commission and available for

         16        amendment by simple majority.  Proposals on revote

         17        must receive 22 votes to be recommitted to Style and

         18        Drafting for a grouping, March 23rd, 1998 grouping.

         19        Style and Drafting will present groupings for the

         20        consideration of the full commission.  Sentence:

         21        Amendments to proposals and groupings require 22

         22        votes.  Now that's where we are today.

         23             I am well aware of what Rule 5 said before we met

         24        and submitted a recommended change which was adopted

         25        on motion by this body without objection.  That


          1        constituted a rule change and that's the procedure

          2        which we're following.

          3             Obviously, as I mentioned before in the colloquy

          4        with Commissioner Scott, you can't get the ballot

          5        language until you know with finality what the

          6        groupings are and we should proceed to do that with a

          7        report of the Style and Drafting Committee.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Smith.

          9             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I don't care to speak at

         10        this time, Mr. Chair.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I thought you asked to be

         12        recognized earlier.  All right.  Does anybody else

         13        want to be heard on this?  If not, we'll proceed.

         14             Commissioner Langley.

         15             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Mr. Chairman, I guess to

         16        bring this to a head so that we know where we're

         17        going, I would make a parliamentary inquiry as to the

         18        Chair's ruling on any proposition that comes up for

         19        our first consideration.  What is the plan?

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, I think I've made it

         21        clear that the Chair rules that any matter that has

         22        received proposal, that has received 22 votes is a

         23        final vote.

         24             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Is the Chair's ruling then

         25        that the votes of last week were the final votes on


          1        the proposition?

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  On the individual proposals,

          3        that is correct.

          4             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Even though you didn't

          5        vote on 21 of them?

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's counted as a negative

          7        vote under the rules.

          8             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  No, sir, the rules say

          9        that you shall vote.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, I rule that that does

         11        not affect the final vote.

         12             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman, let's

         13        do it right and, you know, there is nothing wrong with

         14        doing it right.  I don't think it's going to affect

         15        the outcome of anything.  But you really ought to do

         16        it right and, you know, you can still win.  It's not

         17        right to, you know, to ignore the rules.  That's why

         18        they are here.  If we didn't have rules that big guy

         19        on the street would knock you down every time he came

         20        by you.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Is that an inquiry?

         22             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  The inquiry was, and you

         23        have ruled, and I have no choice but to appeal the

         24        ruling of the Chair.  And I request, if you will, that

         25        you allow the Rules Committee to meet and discuss this


          1        and bring back a recommendation.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I don't think we need to do

          3        that, that would delay us further.  And my ruling is

          4        based on what I consider to be the rules.

          5             Commissioner Wetherington.

          6             COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON:  Brief recess?

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's okay with me.  Let's

          8        take a five-minute recess.  Keep the room secure.

          9        Without objection, we'll recess for five minutes.  The

         10        President's conference room has been made available.

         11        I'm going to ask the committee to assemble in there

         12        immediately and let's write out what we've been

         13        talking about.

         14             All right.  Commissioner Scott, could you get the

         15        rest of the Rules Committee and go in the conference

         16        room?  Here's Commissioner Langley, Commissioner

         17        Evans-Jones, and Commissioner Thompson.  Everybody is

         18        there as soon as you come.

         19             (Brief recess.)

         20             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

         21        All commissioners indicate your presence.  Quorum

         22        call.  Quorum call.

         23             (Pause.)

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're still

         25        missing some people.  Will somebody check in the


          1        bubble back there and those that haven't signed in,

          2        get them to sign in.

          3             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

          4        All commissioners indicate your presence.  Quorum

          5        call.  Quorum call.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're still

          7        missing, I guess, two or three.  Commissioner Connor

          8        is here.  Sign in, please.  Thank you.  And

          9        Commissioner Morsani is here.  Will you sign in and

         10        that will complete those that were here before, I

         11        believe.  Yes.  All right.  Come to order, please.

         12             All right.  In our recess the Rules Committee met

         13        and has a recommendation on this which I think it

         14        would give us a broad consensus on how to proceed and

         15        that's what we're trying to get and I believe this

         16        will do that if I'm not mistaken.  Commissioner

         17        Barkdull, you're recognized to present the Rules

         18        Committee's solution to this problem.

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         20        Members of the Commission, the Rules Committee met and

         21        the consensus was that everything will be on the table

         22        for 22 votes.  We will use the format that's been

         23        suggested by the Style and Drafting Committee that's

         24        in the packet on your desk.  As we take up the

         25        suggested Grouping No. 1, it will be available for


          1        amendment as to substance.  And it will also be

          2        available as to amendment as to grouping.  Either one

          3        of which will take 22 votes.

          4             It is a thought that we will go through all ten

          5        of the suggested groupings as proposed by the Style

          6        and Drafting Committee and we anticipate or we know

          7        that there will be some amendments offered by the

          8        Style and Drafting Committee which will require some

          9        amendments more mechanical to what they have seen in

         10        going through these proposals.  And if there are other

         11        amendments to a proposal or amendments to the grouping

         12        system, the whole package will ultimately be returned

         13        to Style and Drafting at the conclusion of our

         14        consideration of the ten suggested groupings

         15        individually.

         16             They will then come back and report to us what

         17        they recommend as to ballot language, title language

         18        and any amendments that have been engrossed into a

         19        proposal if it was amended in substance.  And at that

         20        time, we will take the final vote that would send a

         21        measure to the ballot.

         22             In any of these proceedings a motion to

         23        reconsider will be available by a simple majority vote

         24        to get the matter back on the table but it will still

         25        take 22 votes to take any action in substance to alter


          1        either the proposal itself or the proposals as

          2        grouped.  If I have not stated it correctly --

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Is that -- first of all, the

          4        Rules Committee unanimously adopted that

          5        recommendation, is my understanding.  Are there any

          6        questions or debate?  Commissioner Connor was up

          7        first, Sundberg is next.

          8             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I have a question of the

          9        Rules Chairman if I may.  Commissioner Barkdull, in a

         10        case of a proposal that is by itself, a single

         11        proposal, and in which we may have an interest in

         12        amending today, which should come first, the proffer

         13        of the amendment or the vote on the group?  And if

         14        it's voted on, is it -- if it were voted on first, in

         15        other words, it's put forth as a single freestanding

         16        proposal, would it be subject to amendment after the

         17        vote on the grouping?

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I think on a motion

         19        for reconsideration you could get it back up,

         20        Commissioner Connor.  But I think for the benefit of

         21        the body if somebody wants to offer a substantive

         22        amendment to a proposal they should offer it first.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.  My

         24        understanding of what they said was if you want to

         25        substantively amend any proposal, period, regardless,


          1        on this round, you have to do that and it takes 22

          2        votes to adopt your amendment.  And the debate

          3        limitation on the amendment, is what, two and two?

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I haven't made that

          5        yet.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          7        Sundberg has a question.

          8             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Commissioner Barkdull, do

          9        I understand that after this vote today or tonight,

         10        whenever it may take place, with respect to these

         11        proposals, it then goes back to Style and Drafting?

         12        And have we then accepted Commissioner Scott's

         13        proposition that then ballot language will be

         14        constructed and then the matters must come back to

         15        this group one more time and be voted with the ballot

         16        language and the proposals joined and receive 22 votes

         17        once again?

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         19             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Thank you.

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I move that the

         21        recommendation of the Rules Committee be approved.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Before we do

         23        that, there is a motion made by Commissioner Barkdull.

         24        Commissioner Barnett wants to address it.

         25             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  No, I don't.  I just want


          1        to make just a point that people will have before

          2        them, for the first time, the proposed ballot

          3        language.  That language is, of course, subject to

          4        amendment too by members of the commission but that's

          5        on a majority vote.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Just to make sure that

          8        clarification is made.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  What we're going to do now is

         10        we're going to get going if that's agreeable to

         11        everybody.  All those in favor of the motion say aye.

         12        Opposed.

         13             (Verbal vote taken.)

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The motion carries.  That is

         15        how we will operate.  Now, Commissioner Barkdull.

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'd like to move you,

         17        sir, that we limit debate on proposed amendments to

         18        substance, to three and three and proposed amendments

         19        to ballot position to three and three with the

         20        discretion of the Chair to be lenient on matters that

         21        may require it.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There is a motion

         23        to limit the debate in the form offered by

         24        Commissioner Barkdull.  All those in favor say aye.

         25        Opposed.


          1             (Verbal vote taken.)

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That carries as well.  Now,

          3        it's my understanding there won't be any debate on the

          4        issues themselves, the proposals themselves, unless

          5        they are amended; is that correct?

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I assume there

          7        wouldn't be unless somebody offered an amendment.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That wouldn't do it

          9        otherwise.  All right.  Then can we get started and

         10        everybody now, are we all agreed this is the way we'll

         11        proceed?  Commissioner Langley.

         12             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  We just had a

         13        conversation.  I mean people talk with you and you

         14        talk with people and people assume things that aren't

         15        necessarily true.  I don't think without a vote of the

         16        body you can say there's not going to be any debate.

         17        I hope there's none.  I'm ready to move on.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Move it.

         19             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I'm not moving it.  I

         20        don't think there ought to be a limit on it.  I mean,

         21        there should be a limit but not just say there is

         22        going to be no debate, what you just said.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, I'm waiting on

         24        somebody.

         25             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Nobody has moved it so


          1        it's okay.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'd like to recognize

          4        Commissioner Mills as chairman of the long-enduring

          5        Style and Drafting Committee because I tell you one

          6        thing, as we start the process, we really owe a lot of

          7        thanks to the six members of this committee.  I lost

          8        count, but I think when I stopped counting, they had

          9        put in a total in excess of 150 person hours on

         10        working on this package.  And I think they are

         11        entitled to a great deal of deference.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Deference to

         13        Commissioner Mills, you're recognized.

         14             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman and

         15        Chairman Barkdull.  Let me take a minute to both thank

         16        some people and tell us where we are.  The

         17        long-suffering members of the Style and Drafting

         18        Committee, Commissioner Alfonso, Commissioner Barnett,

         19        Commissioner Ford-Coates, Commissioner Lowndes and

         20        Commissioner Scott are the owners of those, I think,

         21        more than 150 hours.  And I wanted to thank all of you

         22        for working as diligently as you did.

         23             Another thing I want to do at this point on

         24        behalf of other commissioners is to thank the staff of

         25        this commission.  I mean, I've been in the Legislature


          1        and others have been in other representative -- in

          2        other bodies.  To revise the Constitution of the state

          3        of Florida with 800-some amendments at one time down

          4        to ten propositions at this time, the work that those

          5        folks have done, and that is Sue Ellen Cohen, Lynn

          6        Imhof, Billy Buzzett, Debby Kearney, Debbie Ben-David,

          7        Chris Martinez, Ron Morris, I think we owe them a

          8        round of applause.

          9             (Applause.) 

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  And I certainly wanted to

         12        also thank the long-suffering Faye Blanton and her

         13        Senate staff for suffering with us and helping us make

         14        it through this process.  They're used to suffering

         15        with Commissioner Jennings.

         16             Now let's talk about what we've done here.  We're

         17        about to get passed out -- we're about to pass out,

         18        that's for sure.

         19             (Laughter.)

         20             You're about to get passed out to you -- and

         21        we're getting very sensitive about words in Style and

         22        Drafting -- the product as it came out this morning.

         23        There are ten propositions and those propositions

         24        contain anywhere from one to four or five of the

         25        former 36 proposals.  I don't know what you have.  Now


          1        is the latest of the morning's proposals.  What I

          2        would like to do, to allow you to get the vision of

          3        the forest rather than the trees, is I'll briefly walk

          4        through those ten and tell you kind of what are in

          5        them.  Then as I understand the process, we'll return

          6        to proposition number one and we will vote on the

          7        grouping after voting on any amendments to that

          8        grouping.

          9             Grouping No. 1 relates to environmental issues.

         10        It includes four of the proposals we have previously

         11        had.  The only one of the environmental issues that

         12        you previously saw under the environmental heading

         13        that's not here is the conservation easement.  That is

         14        in the local government area because it deals with a

         15        tax issue.

         16             Proposition 2 deals with education.  It contains

         17        the two issues dealing with education as a paramount

         18        duty and the definition of adequacy, those are both in

         19        Article IX.  Proposition 3 deals with a selection of

         20        judges and the funding of the state court system.

         21        Those were the options dealing with -- the local

         22        election option dealing with merit retention and the

         23        Article V funding, those both relate to Article V and

         24        are related to courts.

         25             I think also we have in there the technical


          1        amendment on the Judicial Qualifications Commission

          2        because that's in Article V as well.

          3             Proposition 4 --

          4             MR. CHAIRMAN:  Do you still have the 3 in there

          5        on the military courts?

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  The military courts ended up

          7        being moved to miscellaneous.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.

          9             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Proposition 4 deals with

         10        restructuring the state cabinet and that is the

         11        cabinet reform proposal.

         12             Proposition 5 deals with reapportionment.  There

         13        are two proposals in here both dealing with the issue

         14        of apportionment.  One creates the commission.  The

         15        second deals with establishing voting districts as

         16        single-member districts.  We'll probably discuss that

         17        more when we get to it.

         18             Proposition 6 deals with a series of election

         19        issues, that is ballot access, public campaign

         20        financing, and election process revisions.

         21        Proposition 7 deals with local and municipal property

         22        tax exemptions and citizen access to local officials.

         23             Proposition 8 deals with firearm purchases.

         24        Proposition 9 deals with basic rights and religions

         25        freedom.  And Proposition 10 we have labeled as


          1        miscellaneous and technical.

          2             I want to mention one thing to you as you are

          3        considering the ballot language and the groupings.  We

          4        have attempted to group these both in logical groups

          5        related to the topic and in topics that are

          6        understandable publicly, because, ultimately, as we've

          7        all said, a public decision and we should do the best

          8        we can to convey that.

          9             Now the other thing you heard described this

         10        morning was the ballot title and ballot summary.

         11        There are statutory requirements for that which we

         12        have adhered to.  The ballot title and summary are to

         13        convey the chief purpose of those proposals and I want

         14        everybody in the public and the press to realize that

         15        you have a 75-word limit.  So the reason there is not

         16        a lot of flowery language in the ballot summary is

         17        there is a legal limit to 75 words.  And it's a

         18        challenge with which we've been faced and which we're

         19        all faced is to do an honest job of representing

         20        what's contained in there.

         21             And I will tell you that the Style and Drafting

         22        Committee approached that task as a ministerial job,

         23        to do the best job we could to describe what the

         24        proposals did, whether we voted for them or against

         25        them.  And I think we probably are in pretty good


          1        shape on those.

          2             If there are any general questions at this point,

          3        I would be glad to try to address those.  Otherwise,

          4        we can go ahead and deal with Proposition 1.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're ready to

          6        go.  And here we are -- I feel like an auctioneer up

          7        here.  If all of you are ready, we'll vote.  We're on

          8        No. 1, which has been explained to you, and there are

          9        seven amendments on the table, six by Style and

         10        Drafting.

         11             Would you read Amendment No. 1, please.

         12             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         13        Drafting, on Page 2, Line 2, after the word "governor"

         14        insert comma.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You are recognized and

         16        Commissioner Mills moves this on behalf of Style and

         17        Drafting.

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  It is merely editorial,

         19        adding a comma.  I'd move it.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in favor of

         21        the amendment signify by saying aye.  Opposed.

         22             (Verbal vote taken.)

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is adopted.  Read

         24        Amendment No. 2, please.

         25             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Thompson, on Page


          1        2, Lines 20 through 23, delete, Revenue derived from

          2        such licensing fees shall be appropriated to the

          3        commission by the Legislature for the purpose of

          4        management, protection, and conservation of wild

          5        animal life, freshwater aquatic life and marine life.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          7        Thompson, you are recognized for Amendment 2 and you

          8        can tell us what the new language says.

          9             COMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman and

         10        Members, this is basically the amendment we proposed

         11        last week.  Commissioner Henderson proposed it and

         12        then wanted to withdraw it.  And we talked about it.

         13        It was subsequently defeated.  I now -- I have had it

         14        drafted to fit into the group and have chosen to offer

         15        it in that way rather than as a reconsideration.  But

         16        the issue is still the same, and that is whether or

         17        not all license fees have to go directly to this new

         18        agency or whether or not there is still discretion

         19        over the saltwater licenses.

         20             The logic for that is, number one, there are

         21        federal funds that flow.  And, number two, there are

         22        lot of things that DEP does that are beyond what I

         23        think we've all wanted this new commission to do in

         24        that I think the main jurisdiction that we are

         25        transferring here basically is the seasons, bag


          1        limits, size limits, those kinds of things.  And there

          2        a lot of other things that DEP does in respect to this

          3        and with these license fees.

          4             If you transfer all of this money to the new

          5        agency, number one, I think you're going to give it a

          6        lot more money than you ever realized and you're going

          7        to create something that you didn't realize that you

          8        were creating.  And, number two, the Legislature won't

          9        have the jurisdiction to direct that flow and that

         10        jurisdiction as it needs to.  And that's basically

         11        what the amendment does.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Any questions?

         13        Commissioner Barkdull has a question.  Commissioner

         14        Thompson yields.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Thompson, as

         16        I understand the memorandum that's been handed to me

         17        this morning about the impact of this amendment, if

         18        this is adopted there will remain in Marine Fisheries

         19        the responsibility for marine research, marine law

         20        enforcement, and marine executive functions.  And if

         21        that's true, what are we really accomplishing if we're

         22        going to have two enforcement agencies and we're going

         23        to have two agencies doing the same items?  Or is it

         24        the intention to keep them separate?  I thought the

         25        intention was to merge them.


          1             COMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Well, I think -- I'm not

          2        sure as to whether or not you're mixing apples and

          3        oranges.  What I'm talking about is a transfer of the

          4        jurisdiction to deal with one of the big industries in

          5        this state, which is seafood and also sports fishing.

          6        Now, what are the DEP programs that go back up the

          7        line?  One of the things I was thinking about

          8        yesterday is what jurisdiction is this new

          9        constitutional agency going to have over the locks on

         10        the Chattahoochee River because that might impact

         11        Apalachicola Bay.

         12             I think the Legislature is going to have the

         13        jurisdiction to determine that and they need to have

         14        the funding sources to do that with also.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, seems to me that

         16        we're locking in the Constitution the differential

         17        between the two agencies that I thought we were trying

         18        to merge.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso.

         20             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Just an observation.  I'd

         21        like to speak against the amendment.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  You're recognized.

         23             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Just deja vu all over

         24        again.  This hasn't changed since last time.  We all

         25        thought about it and made a decision.  We can now


          1        think about it again.  And one would think it was a

          2        logical process last time we made this decision.  Do

          3        we want to create two enforcement agencies?  Is this a

          4        unification or is it two separate creations?  Let's

          5        think that out.  We've been working on this a long,

          6        long time and it's time to just get on with it.  So

          7        that's all I have to say on this.  Thank you.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I have a question.  Wasn't

          9        this withdrawn before we voted on that amendment?  We

         10        voted on it?  Okay.  You tried to withdraw it and you

         11        couldn't; isn't that what happened, Commissioner

         12        Henderson?

         13             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Mr. Chairman, I proposed

         14        the amendment in good faith after working with the

         15        various agencies for several hours and unable to reach

         16        an agreement with them.  At that time I indicated what

         17        would be acceptable would be one amendment or the

         18        other.

         19             Commissioner Thompson proffered one of the

         20        amendments which we did support and it did pass.  And

         21        this one, I did attempt to withdraw it.  But

         22        Commissioner Thompson gave a very fair argument in

         23        support of it and it did not succeed.  And so, I'm

         24        here in the same posture today that we were a week ago

         25        which is I can tell every person in this chamber that


          1        I have made my best efforts to try to reach some

          2        agreement on this issue and have been unable to do so.

          3             And so the question before the body is very

          4        simply whether or not the saltwater license fees that

          5        are paid by saltwater fishermen should go with the new

          6        agency or whether it should go to the Legislature to

          7        divide that.  The only thing that is new in this

          8        discussion is that we have had a chance to look at the

          9        federal act, the question has been raised, the

         10        Wallop-Breaux Act and that is a federal statute that

         11        requires the funds or fees paid by fisherman to go to

         12        the Game and Fish Department of the respective state.

         13             So there are lawyers that are involved in this

         14        issue that have raised the question that if this

         15        amendment is adopted, then it has the potential impact

         16        of causing us to create a diversion under this federal

         17        act.

         18             This is difficult for me.  I can tell you that

         19        there has been a lot of discussion around this issue

         20        for the last week.  But I'm prepared now to stand on

         21        the basis.  I stand on the proposal that we have

         22        before us as a body.  It is the best that we can do.

         23        And the Legislature next year will be in the process

         24        to have to straighten this out and other things.  The

         25        Marine Patrol, Marine Institute and other things will


          1        be before them and they'll be able to figure it out,

          2        that's what they're elected to do.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Anybody want to

          4        speak further on it, Commissioner Sundberg and then

          5        Commissioner --

          6             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  I have a question of

          7        Commissioner Henderson.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson, do

          9        you yield?

         10             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Yes, sir.

         11             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Commissioner Henderson,

         12        you say that the Legislature will have this issue

         13        before them and then can straighten it out.  Isn't

         14        part of the problem that, in fact, though, revenues

         15        are resources that would permit them, if they had the

         16        ability to appropriate those revenues, unless

         17        precluded by this amendment, that they would have

         18        those revenues available to provide for, yes,

         19        enforcement of programs in DEP as well as programs in

         20        the constitutional commission?

         21             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  That is correct.  The

         22        provision we have before us says that the revenues

         23        would be appropriated to the commission.  I think it's

         24        a very practical matter.  There are issues concerning

         25        the Marine Patrol, the Marine Research Institute which


          1        does other things than this.  Both -- the Marine

          2        Patrol enforces regulations regarding saltwater

          3        fishing.  They also enforce regulations concerning

          4        manatees that are unaffected by this proposal.

          5             The same is true by the Research Institute.  It

          6        deals with same fisheries' enhancement issues, but it

          7        also deals with manatees that are unaffected by this

          8        program.  So the Legislature is going to be in a

          9        posture next year of trying to draw those lines.  And

         10        I believe, and I certainly am going to be there next

         11        year urging upon the Legislature, that the new

         12        commission be in a posture of contracting back with

         13        DEP to do some of these things through the Research

         14        Institute and through the Marine Patrol.

         15             But to divide the fees today, I think does run

         16        the risk of us creating a diversion under the federal

         17        act and that's why attorneys that have been looking at

         18        this are very much concerned about the issue.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  I'm going to

         20        apply the same rule to debate on the amendments that

         21        we did on the other, so three and three is going to be

         22        the rule.  And we weren't keeping time on this one

         23        however.  Is there anybody else that wants to speak

         24        for or against this?  Commissioner Mathis.

         25             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  I have a question and I'm


          1        not sure who to direct it to.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Direct it and we'll make

          3        somebody answer it.

          4             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  Are there other commissions

          5        that receive direct funding from fees that are imposed

          6        on the citizens of Florida or would this be a new

          7        thing?

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I believe the Game Commission

          9        does, doesn't it?  Commissioner Ford-Coates, can you

         10        answer that?

         11             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Currently, the Game

         12        and Freshwater Fish Commission is charged with the

         13        administration of all hunting and fishing license fees

         14        both fresh water and saltwater.  A few years ago DEP

         15        got out of the business of actually collecting for the

         16        salt fresh water fishing license.  So today the Game

         17        Commission administers those saltwater fishing license

         18        fees.  I assume they give them back to DEP.

         19             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  Is that direct

         20        administration?  The Legislature does not have any

         21        part in that?

         22             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  The Legislature passes

         23        the laws that regulate the fishing, the seasons, et

         24        cetera, on salt.  The Game Commission provides the

         25        regulations on fresh.


          1             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  Did the Legislature

          2        delegate that authority for collection of the fees in

          3        administering those fees to the commission?

          4             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  The law now says the

          5        Game Commission is the one that collects them, through

          6        their agents, the tax collectors and their subagents.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Is there any

          8        further discussion be on the amendment?  Commissioner

          9        Barnett.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Could I ask a question of

         11        Commissioner Henderson?

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  He yields.

         13             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Commissioner Henderson,

         14        assuming this proposal was adopted --

         15             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Assuming the amendment

         16        was adopted.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Excuse me, the amendment

         18        to the proposal was adopted, would the Legislature

         19        still have the option to appropriate all of these

         20        funds to the new commission?

         21             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Yes.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any further questions?

         23        Commissioner Alfonso.

         24             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Question of Commissioner

         25        Barnett.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barnett, you

          2        yield.

          3             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Has not the Legislature

          4        had this option all these years and what have they

          5        done?  That's my question.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barnett.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  I don't have any idea.

          8             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  That's why we've discussed

          9        this and that's why we're doing what we're doing.  I

         10        just think it's, you know, the last hour here and

         11        there's pressure to change the way the money flows on

         12        this thing and we've been talking about this for a

         13        long time and we're now arguing over who's to manage

         14        the critters and the resource.  The memo that I read

         15        from last time was dated September 30th.  It wasn't

         16        dated last week.  It was an FDEP memo.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, this takes

         18        22 votes to adopt as an amendment.  And if you would

         19        unlock the machine, we'll vote.  Two people haven't

         20        voted.  If you haven't voted, vote.  Now I voted, is

         21        that all right, Commissioner Langley, I voted.

         22             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  See, you're complying with

         23        the rules, Mr. Chairman.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I was going to rule with you

         25        that everything I voted on was all right.  And


          1        everything I didn't wasn't and that wouldn't have been

          2        fair, would it?

          3             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  You know, you really

          4        didn't have to vote on this one.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I did though.  I'll vote from

          6        now on everything if that's the wish.  Lock the

          7        machine and announce the vote.

          8             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          9             READING CLERK:  Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,

         10        Mr. Chairman.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you failed to

         12        adopt the amendment.  We'll now move to the next

         13        amendment, it will be No. 3.  Read it, please.

         14             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         15        Drafting.  On Page 2, Line 21, delete the word

         16        "purpose" and insert "purposes."

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This is a

         18        technical amendment by Style and Drafting.

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I move it.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Just added an "S" to purpose.

         21        All in favor say aye.  Opposed.

         22             (Verbal vote taken.)

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Carries.  Now Amendment

         24        No. 4, please read it.

         25             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and


          1        Drafting on Page 3, Line 17, delete the comma.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is self-explanatory.

          3        Somebody from Marion is deleting the comma.

          4             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I move it.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's moved by Commissioner

          6        Mills.  All in favor say aye.  Opposed.

          7             (Verbal vote taken.)

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The comma is deleted.

          9             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         10        Drafting.  On Page 3, Line 20, delete the word

         11        "determines" and insert "determine."

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think this is same type of

         13        amendment that we just had.  It takes an "S" off this

         14        time.  We lost an "S" and added an "S."  We got to be

         15        fair.  All in favor say aye.  Opposed.

         16             (Verbal vote taken.)

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's adopted.  Next

         18        amendment, please.

         19             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         20        Drafting.  On Page 3, Line 28, delete the words

         21        "either of."

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, Commissioner Mills, you

         23        might better tell us briefly what that does.  We're

         24        deleting the words "either/or" on Page 3, Line 28.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I'm getting to the right


          1        page.  Page 3, Mr. Chairman?

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Page 3, Line 28, of the

          3        proposal.

          4             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, it doesn't change the

          5        meaning of that surplus language.  What you have is

          6        "either of" those.  And so what you have is on those.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Technical change.  All in

          8        favor say aye.  Opposed.

          9             (Verbal vote taken.)

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's adopted.  Now, the next

         11        amendment.

         12             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Barnett.  On Page

         13        1, Line 4, after the word "granting," insert "it the."

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barnett, do you

         15        move this?  Commissioner Mills can explain it if you'd

         16        like.

         17             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, what I'd like to do at

         18        this point, that is the last Style and Drafting

         19        amendment to the text of the proposal and there are no

         20        more --

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There are no more on the

         22        desk.

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  All right.  Now this is

         24        relating to the ballot language, Commissioner

         25        Barnett's amendment.  Now you have the ballot language


          1        in front of you.  On Revision 1, the heading that

          2        says, Conservation of natural resources and creation

          3        of Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

          4        That's --

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This is --

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I want to make sure

          7        everybody has that.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is on Page 1, Line 4; is

          9        that correct?

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Right.  Now Commissioner

         11        Barnett may want to explain it.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barnett is

         13        recognized.

         14             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  This is just a technical

         15        amendment, Mr. Chairman.  The second clause creates

         16        the Game and Fish Conservation Commission and

         17        grants -- and then it says, Grants executive powers of

         18        the two bodies.  We don't say to which entity we grant

         19        it.  So the amendment says "Granting it the regulatory

         20        and executive powers" to make it clear what the new

         21        commission gets, those powers.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

         23        understand the amendment?  Commissioner Scott, you

         24        have a question?

         25             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Just a question.  This


          1        replaces basically what was in Revision 1.  Is that

          2        the -- I just don't want us to -- is that the only

          3        change made in it?  I thought there might be --

          4             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  We made substantial

          5        changes to the ballot language which is in front of

          6        you and this is an amendment to that change that we

          7        did this morning.  We just left out a designation of

          8        who got these powers.

          9             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Yes.

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman?

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes, Commissioner Mills.

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  What we decided was you did

         13        not have -- what's printed in front of you that

         14        contains the entire text was not the final work

         15        product of Style and Drafting.  The final work product

         16        of Style and Drafting with, Commissioner Scott, this

         17        morning, et cetera, was this, on the ballot language.

         18        And the only thing we're changing is the ballot

         19        language.

         20             And this ballot language, Commissioner Scott, as

         21        you recall, there was concern on this issue to make

         22        sure that we were clear that legislative authority had

         23        been removed because that was an issue in a case and

         24        so it does that.

         25             So, this is the ballot language as it came out of


          1        Style and Drafting and Commissioner Barnett has

          2        recognized the insertion of the two words would help

          3        clarify it.  Now, we had said before that since this

          4        is the proposal of Style and Drafting, when you vote

          5        on this grouping, I take it at this point you get this

          6        language.  But you haven't voted on final passage.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  So this would be

          8        an amendment requiring a simple majority; is that

          9        correct?

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Right.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And then we come back and

         12        vote on it again; is that correct, Commissioner

         13        Barkdull?

         14             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Is everybody

         16        ready to vote on this amendment to the ballot language

         17        offered as No. 7, or whatever it is, one Page 1, Line

         18        4, after the word "granting," insert "it the."  All in

         19        favor say aye.  Opposed.

         20             (Verbal vote taken.)

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is adopted.  No further

         22        amendments on the table.  Commissioner Mills.

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  If I understand the posture

         24        we're in, it would now be appropriate to move a vote

         25        on the grouping which would require 22 votes?


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That is correct unless there

          2        are other amendments.

          3             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Right.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Are there other amendments?

          5             READING CLERK:  None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Let me make sure I got this

          7        right.  This is a motion on the grouping and the

          8        ballot language but not the final vote; is that

          9        correct?

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That is correct.  This is a

         11        vote on the grouping and the ballot language, not a

         12        final vote on the -- any of the proposals.

         13        Commissioner Barnett.

         14             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Just a question.  Not that

         15        I think this will happen, but just -- there was -- but

         16        anything could happen.  If someone wanted to add, say

         17        there's another proposed grouping that breaks apart or

         18        a provision someone wants to add to this -- can it,

         19        even though we're voting on the grouping, is it still

         20        available for that amendment?

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  That's my understanding.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  You don't now need to go

         23        to another proposed grouping and pull that out because

         24        that's not before us.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  She wants to know if you want


          1        to put something else in this group, do you need to do

          2        it now.  Is that what you're saying?

          3             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Right.  Or wait until you

          4        come up to that -- can you amend this even though we

          5        voted on it as a grouping?

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  By 22 votes.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, I think the

          9        response to the question would be that if later on in

         10        the proceedings, because of what may happen to a

         11        subsequent group, she thinks that there should be an

         12        alteration in this group, the proper procedure would

         13        be a motion to reconsider the vote by which we adopted

         14        this grouping which would take a simple majority to

         15        pass and then would get this grouping back on the

         16        table again and it would be subject to amendment by 22

         17        votes.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Is that understood?  All

         19        right.  Now we're going to be ready to vote then on

         20        Amendment No. 1, the grouping and the ballot language

         21        that is before you.  Revision 1 is the way it will be

         22        titled.  Unlock the machine and let's vote.  Everybody

         23        hasn't voted.  Now we have.

         24             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce


          1        the vote.

          2             READING CLERK:  Thirty-two yeas, three nays,

          3        Mr. Chairman.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you've grouped

          5        these together and we'll now move to No. 2, Revision

          6        No. 2.  Commissioner Henderson.

          7             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Just since the first one

          8        out of the box is the guinea pig and I'm slow, when do

          9        we get to the issue of final passage?

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  After we come back, after we

         11        go through this exercise of dealing with --

         12             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  It may be today, it may

         13        be next week?

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, it's going to be today if

         15        it's tonight.  We're going to try to finish this up

         16        today.  I say that with all degree of expectations.

         17             All right.  We now go to Revision No. 2.  Would

         18        you explain -- how are we going to do this?  Are we

         19        going to read these?  Read the title to Provision

         20        No. 2.

         21             READING CLERK:  Provision 2, relating to public

         22        education of children.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This is the

         24        education grouping.  Commissioner Mills.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I don't think


          1        there are any Style and Drafting amendments on the

          2        desk.  There is one, okay.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There is an Amendment No. 1.

          4        Would you read the amendment, please.  By Style and

          5        Drafting, moved by Commissioner Mills.

          6             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

          7        Drafting, on Page 1, Line 15, delete the word "its."

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          9        Mills.

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  It deletes the word "its."

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  All in favor say aye.

         12        Opposed.

         13             (Verbal vote taken.)

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is adopted.  Amendment

         15        No. 2.

         16             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Brochin on Page

         17        1, Line 3, delete "adequate" and insert "adequate."

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Wait a minute.  Oh, it's

         19        spelling.  I see.  We're going to spell it right, is

         20        that right, Commissioner Brochin?  Okay.  Does

         21        everybody understand, this is a correction to make it

         22        spelled correctly, "adequate."  All those in favor say

         23        aye.  Opposed.

         24             (Verbal vote taken.)

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It does carry.  No. 3 is


          1        next.

          2             READING CLERK:  By Commission Brochin on Page 1,

          3        Lines 16 through 26, delete those lines and insert,

          4        State of Florida, it is therefore a paramount duty of

          5        the state to make adequate provision for the education

          6        of all children residing within its borders.  Adequate

          7        provision shall be made by law for a uniform,

          8        efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of

          9        free public schools that allow students to obtain a

         10        high-quality education and for the establishment,

         11        maintenance, and operation of institutions of higher

         12        learning and other public education programs that the

         13        needs of people may require.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         15        Brochin, you're recognized on your amendment and this

         16        is an amendment to the second one in the revision; is

         17        that right?

         18             COMMISIONER BROCHIN:  Well, it's actually an

         19        amendment to both so we can bring them together,

         20        that's the whole purpose, so they read well together.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  So explain your

         22        amendment.

         23             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  This does not

         24        substantively change either Proposal 181 and it does

         25        not substantively change Proposal 157.  What it does


          1        is it makes it so the two read together clearly.

          2             And the change is instead of making adequate

          3        education, the first part makes clear that it's

          4        adequate provision for the education of all children.

          5        And then the only change in the second part dealing

          6        with adequate provision is we changed the word from

          7        "achieve" a high-quality education to the word

          8        "obtain" a high-quality education.  So substantively,

          9        there's no difference.

         10             This is the intent to marry the two provisions

         11        together.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, does that mean we'll

         13        only have one on the ballot?

         14             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I don't know.  You have

         15        two proposals, 157 and 181.  They're read together,

         16        they're the same article, they're the same section.

         17        It would make sense to present them as one proposal.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  At the moment they're two

         19        separate proposals?

         20             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  Right.  That's only

         21        because procedurally that's how they came to us.  But

         22        they are meant to be read together and they're in the

         23        same section.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Did you discuss with Style

         25        and Drafting making one proposal out of these?


          1             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I did not discuss it with

          2        Style and Drafting.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Then we don't have

          4        that recommendation before us.  Does everybody

          5        understand his amendment?  Question, Commissioner

          6        Connor.

          7             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Mr. Chairman, I had always

          8        been under the impression that we were dealing with

          9        two separate proposals.  But in my handout of

         10        materials, I only have one.  Am I missing something

         11        here?

         12             COMMISIONER BROCHIN:  There are two proposals.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  They have been merged then?

         14        Now, here's my question then.  So then is Style and

         15        Drafting proposing as a grouping that this be one,

         16        just one stand-alone proposal rather than --

         17             COMMISIONER BROCHIN:  I think what Style and

         18        Drafting did was take the two proposals, which they

         19        were always separate --

         20             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  And merged them?

         21             COMMISIONER BROCHIN:  Well, I don't know if merge

         22        them is the right word.  But those two proposals have

         23        been recommended as one group.

         24             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Well, here's my question,

         25        Mr. Chairman, if I may.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Your question was the same as

          2        mine.

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  It strikes me that this

          4        body -- it strikes me that what Style and Drafting has

          5        done, unilaterally, I believe, is to group these

          6        proposals without an affirmative vote by this body.

          7        These always had been, as I understood it, two

          8        separate freestanding proposals.  And now they've

          9        merged them into one which I think ought to require a

         10        vote of this body.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Just a moment.

         12        If what I've got before me, that appears to be the

         13        case, Commissioner Brochin, that's why I asked you the

         14        question.  We started out with two and on my sheet

         15        where we're working from, on the special order, it had

         16        both of them on there.  No. 157 by Commissioner Mills

         17        and Proposal 181 by you.  And one was adopted 28 to 2

         18        and the other one 28 to 1.

         19             But what you're telling us, I think, and I think

         20        I asked the same question Commissioner Connor did, we

         21        only have one in our packet which you now tell me were

         22        merged.  Commissioner Barnett for Style and Drafting.

         23             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  To explain, I think there

         24        is a little misunderstanding.  What you have in your

         25        package is the recommendation from Style and Drafting


          1        as to proposed groupings.  This particular one on

          2        education had two separate proposals initially that we

          3        proposed grouping into one.  Because they both amend

          4        the same article and section of the Constitution, the

          5        language that's before you has simply redone, retyped

          6        those to merge them into that one section to show how

          7        they would be in the Constitution if passed.  That's

          8        our recommendation.  Now it's my understanding

          9        Commissioner Brochin wants to change the language of

         10        that recommendation.

         11             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Well, then as a point of

         12        order if I may, Mr. Chairman.  Since this body has not

         13        yet voted to group them, it seems to me it would be

         14        out of order to take up the proposed amendment.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think the amendment is

         16        proper, but you put your finger -- just a moment.  You

         17        put your finger on this.  If you're against what

         18        they've done, then you vote no on this amendment.  You

         19        vote no on this amendment if you're against what the

         20        Style and Drafting has done, that's the way I

         21        understand it because it is appropriate for them to

         22        recommend that two proposals would combine, they are

         23        in the same grouping anyway, be grouped.  Then you

         24        would vote against this amendment.  If you don't like

         25        what they did, then you would vote against the


          1        grouping.

          2             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Right.  But if I understand

          3        it, Commissioner Brochin is asking us to vote on

          4        language which would amend the group which has not yet

          5        been adopted.  Am I wrong on that?

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, he's moving to amend

          7        what's before us which is the report of the Style and

          8        Drafting which does what I just said.  And he's moving

          9        to amend their report; is that right, Commissioner

         10        Barnett?  Their recommendation, excuse me.

         11             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  The recommendation of

         12        Style and Drafting is to group these two proposals and

         13        what's before you is simply a scrivener's merging of

         14        the two proposals because they affected the same

         15        article and section of the Constitution.  What

         16        Commissioner Brochin wants to do is actually amend the

         17        substantive language.  Style and Drafting did not

         18        recommend amendments to the substantive language in

         19        the proposals, simply the merger of the two.

         20             You may well like his language better and still

         21        be opposed to grouping both of these proposals.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think -- my ruling is, if

         23        you don't like grouping these or you don't like one of

         24        them in this case, you vote no on the final vote.  But

         25        at the moment, he's moved to amend the substantive


          1        language.  And tell us what you've substantively

          2        changed.

          3             COMMISIONER BROCHIN:  I haven't substantively

          4        changed anything.  All I've done is -- and I haven't

          5        tried to merge the two together.  I'm just saying as a

          6        group, I'm proposing that it just be rewritten to

          7        provide, one, that instead of providing for adequate

          8        education, it made clear that it is making adequate

          9        provision for the education which makes sense because

         10        then the next one, which is Proposal 157, is what

         11        talks about adequate provision which is a separate

         12        proposal.

         13             And the only thing I changed in that proposal was

         14        changed the word to "obtain" a high-quality education

         15        as compared to the word "achieved."  That's the only

         16        difference I made substantively.  And intent-wise,

         17        there is absolutely no difference and there's no

         18        attempt to merge these two together now.  It's simply

         19        to change what Style and Drafting has come forward

         20        with.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

         22        understand that the amendment would change the Style

         23        and Drafting recommendation to change the language he

         24        just outlined which is a change according to his

         25        understanding and intent not to the substance of


          1        either amendment but to the proposal offered by Style

          2        and Drafting?  Somebody from Style and Drafting want

          3        to address this to give us your view on this?

          4        Commissioner Mills.

          5             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, I take

          6        Commissioner Brochin's statement at face value.  I

          7        don't think it's -- changes the substance.  But we in

          8        Style and Drafting didn't even change the order of the

          9        words.  So I think that --

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Recommend a vote for or

         11        against?  You ought to tell us.  We need to know how

         12        to do it.

         13             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, as a matter of

         14        substance, I think he has clarified the language and I

         15        would intend to vote for it.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  So you, as

         17        chairman of Style and Drafting, at least recommend the

         18        vote for this amendment.  Anybody else on Style and

         19        Drafting want to address it?  If not, all in favor of

         20        the amendment say aye.  Opposed.

         21             (Verbal vote taken.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted.

         23        Are there further amendments on the table?

         24             READING CLERK:  None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner


          1        Connor.

          2             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Mr. Chairman, then if we

          3        want to -- if I understand procedurally, if we want to

          4        segment these two proposals and vote on them

          5        individually by their merits, as I understand it, we

          6        vote no on the amended recommendation that we have

          7        before us; is that correct?

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think that's right.

          9        Commissioner Langley.  Commissioner Langley is

         10        recognized.

         11             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  All the language then,

         12        defining adequate is no longer with us?  Well his

         13        amendment strikes everything from 16 to 26 which is

         14        everything in there and reinserts this which says

         15        nothing about adequate.  I don't care because I don't

         16        like defining adequate anyway in the Constitution.

         17        But for the people here, the guts of the second

         18        amendment was what does adequate mean.  But it is not

         19        there now.  That's fine with me.  I just think people

         20        ought to know that we're not doing that anymore.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's got adequate in the one

         22        I've got.

         23             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  No, sir.  It says,

         24        Adequate provision shall be made.  But the other

         25        proposal says, Adequate provision means providing an


          1        efficient, safe, secure, high-quality, et cetera, it

          2        says what adequate is.  I don't think we ought to do

          3        that and I agree.  I just didn't know if Mr. Brochin

          4        knew that he was doing that.

          5             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  No, I knew what I was

          6        doing and I don't think it changes it and I still

          7        don't because the language that was in there before

          8        simply said as adequate provision is used in the

          9        previous sentence, this is what it means.

         10             So in instead, we just put the words which were

         11        defining adequate provision in the sentence that

         12        requires law to be made by adequate provision.  So now

         13        it reads, Adequate provision shall be made by law for

         14        uniform, and adds the definitional terms of efficient,

         15        safe, secure and high-quality which is what the

         16        explanation was in the second sentence.  I just think

         17        it's better writing.  I don't think it changes it at

         18        all.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Anybody got any

         20        further questions or comments?  If not, Commissioner

         21        Corr.

         22             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Mr. Chairman, a further

         23        comment to Commissioner Langley's observation.  I want

         24        it to be clear, I believe that this is the same in

         25        substance to the previous proposal amended.  What we


          1        have in here is a definition of adequate provision.

          2        Whereas before it said, Adequate provision shall be

          3        made by law for a uniform system of free public

          4        schools.

          5             Now what we have is, Adequate provision shall be

          6        made by law for uniform, efficient, safe, secure and

          7        high-quality system of free public schools that allows

          8        students to obtain a high-quality education.  This is

          9        still the biggest invitation to a lawsuit that we have

         10        maybe besides from the first proposal we just passed

         11        about natural resources.  But this is the lawsuit

         12        proposal for public education still even amended.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I take it you're speaking

         14        against the amendment and against the proposal.

         15             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Just an observation.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Is that correct?

         17             COMMISSIONER CORR:  I guess so.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're on the

         19        amendment at this point.  We're not voting on the

         20        proposal yet.

         21             (Off-the-record comment.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Beg your pardon?  Oh, we

         23        voted on the amendment, excuse me.  That was on the

         24        proposal.  Thank you.

         25             All right.  Any further debate on the proposal


          1        itself now?  It wouldn't be the proposal, excuse me,

          2        it will be the grouping of those two into this form,

          3        that's what we're voting on.  All right.  Unlock the

          4        machine and we'll all vote.

          5             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Lock the machine

          7        and announce the vote.

          8             READING CLERK:  Twenty-eight yeas, seven nays,

          9        Mr. Chairman.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you have

         11        accepted the grouping of the Style and Drafting

         12        Committee.

         13             We'll now move to Revision 3, funding of state

         14        courts and judicial reform.  Are there amendments on

         15        the table?

         16             READING CLERK:  Amendments on the desk, Mr.

         17        Chairman.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read Amendment No. 1.

         19             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         20        Drafting,  on Page 2, Lines 9 through 10, and Lines 17

         21        through 18, delete the words, And Article V, Section

         22        11, as amended.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         24        Mills, you're recognized to explain the amendment by

         25        Style and Drafting.


          1             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  This simply deletes -- this

          2        is an unneeded reference which you have at Subsection

          3        A.  In other words, it says, The election of circuit

          4        judges shall be preserved notwithstanding the

          5        provisions of Subsection A as amended, and you delete

          6        Article V, Section 11.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So you're deleting, And

          8        Article V, Section 11, on that page; is that right?

          9        Is that correct?

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Right.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand the

         12        amendment?  It deletes what is termed by Style and

         13        Drafting to be an unnecessary reference.  All those in

         14        favor say aye.  Opposed.

         15             (Verbal vote taken.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted.

         17        Read the next amendment.

         18             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Scott, on Page 3,

         19        Line 4, delete the word "Secretary of State" and

         20        insert "custodian of state records."

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         22        Scott, move this amendment?  Do you want to speak to

         23        it?  Everybody understand it?  It just changes the

         24        word "Secretary of State" to "custodian of records."

         25             All right.  All those in favor of the amendment


          1        say aye.  Opposed.

          2             (Verbal vote taken.)

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is adopted.  Next

          4        amendment.

          5             READING CLERK:  None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No more amendments on the

          7        desk.  All right.  Now we're on the groupings of

          8        Revision 3 which is the grouping of Proposal No. 66

          9        which is providing the local option merit selection

         10        and retention and the Article V funding provision

         11        which we spent a lot of time on which is No. 3155.

         12        Commissioner Lowndes is recognized.

         13             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I have an amendment which

         14        I have prepared, but it's not on the desk, to the

         15        ballot language because of some observations from some

         16        nonlegal people about its clarity.  Can I offer that

         17        amendment?

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You may.  And it needs to be

         19        put on the table.  We need a copy.

         20             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I have prepared it.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I wonder if it would be

         23        appropriate to temporarily pass this.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, let's -- what I'd like to

         25        do is to finish this grouping.


          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'd like to finish it

          2        too.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's finish it then we're

          4        going to go to lunch and take 30 minutes to eat lunch.

          5        It's right back here.  We're going to finish this one

          6        with your permission of course.

          7             Commissioner Lowndes, you can go ahead and

          8        explain your amendment and then I'll have -- well, is

          9        it ready to be read?  She can't read it, you didn't do

         10        a good job.  Do you want to come up here and tell her

         11        how to read it?  We're going to cut you out of lunch

         12        if you don't hurry up, Commissioner Lowndes.

         13             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Commissioner Lowndes moved

         14        the following amendment to summary, on Page 1, Line 3,

         15        add after "selection," the words "selection, by

         16        appointment" and add after the word "retention by vote

         17        to "retain or not."

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, Commissioner Lowndes to

         19        explain the amendment.  This is for the ballot

         20        language, right?

         21             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  As to ballot language.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's in one of these.

         23             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Yes, sir.  It was

         24        suggested to me by Mr. Morsani, Commissioner Morsani,

         25        this morning that the people that worked in his shop


          1        wouldn't know what we  were talking about if we said

          2        merit selection and retention.  And after he said

          3        that, it occurred to me that we really needed to be

          4        more clear what we're talking about.  So this says,

          5        Merit selection by appointment.  And retention by a

          6        vote to retain or not.

          7             And then the average person could understand what

          8        they're voting for and that's the reason for the

          9        amendment.  And I wanted to thank Commissioner Morsani

         10        for pointing that out.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So we have clarifying

         12        ballot language.  Now, Commissioner Sundberg.

         13             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  For a question,

         14        Commissioner Lowndes.

         15             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Yes, sir.

         16             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Does this really clarify

         17        merit selection by appointment by whom under one

         18        process?

         19             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Well, I think it clarifies

         20        to this extent, I think the average voter is going to

         21        be dealing with the proposition of whether I elect it

         22        or whether somebody appoints them.  And I think it at

         23        least shows him that's the choice.  I don't think he

         24        can figure out that's the choice if you simply say

         25        merit selection.  It may be merit selection by the


          1        voter.

          2             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Well, the problem is, it

          3        seems to me, that this -- that this will permit a

          4        characterization which might be detrimental to the

          5        passage of this -- I'm just made uneasy by it.  It

          6        doesn't -- I'm not sure it fully explains.  And I know

          7        a ballot language cannot fully explain it.  I'm not

          8        sure this is an improvement.  It seems to me it may

          9        work against the proposition.  I don't have anything

         10        else to offer.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  As I understand it, it's

         12        offered by Commissioner Lowndes with the intent to

         13        clarify it for the average person.

         14             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  That's right.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The above average too because

         16        Commissioner Morsani brought it to your attention.

         17        Didn't mean to slight you, Commissioner Morsani.

         18             All right.  Is there any further discussion on

         19        the amendment to the ballot language that's been

         20        offered by amendment by Commissioner Lowndes?  If not,

         21        all in favor of the amendment say aye.  Opposed.

         22             (Verbal vote taken.)

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  Now, the next

         24        proposal there, I think doesn't require a vote because

         25        there are no amendments on the table, it's whether or


          1        not -- the only vote it requires is whether or not you

          2        want to leave it single; is that right?  All right.

          3        Then on the -- excuse me.

          4             (Off-the-record comment.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Oh, excuse me.  We didn't

          6        take the vote on 3 so we better do that.  Now that's

          7        grouping those two proposals that we've been

          8        discussing and the ballot language as amended.  So

          9        unlock the machine and we'll vote on Revision No. 3

         10        which is the judicial revision -- grouping.  All

         11        right.  Lock the machine and announce the vote.

         12             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         13             READING CLERK:  Thirty yeas, 5 nays,

         14        Mr. Chairman.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  By your vote,

         16        you've confirmed that as a grouping.  Now on Revision

         17        No. 4, the only thing we have to do there is vote on

         18        whether or not we're going to leave it single because

         19        there is nothing to group with it.

         20             All right.  We'll go to lunch.  She just told me

         21        somebody is trying to do a 14-page amendment to this

         22        and we'll want to do that on a full stomach.  So with

         23        your permission, somebody move for a recess to go eat

         24        lunch and we'll be back at 1:00.

         25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  1:00.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's try to get started as

          2        promptly as we can at 1:00.

          3             (Lunch recess at 12:30 p.m.)

          4             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

          5        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

          6        commissioners indicate your presence.  Quorum call.

          7        Quorum call.

          8             (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We have three that are here

         10        that are not signed in.  Will somebody check the back

         11        back there?

         12             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

         13        All commissioners indicate your presence.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If everybody will

         15        be seated, we'll get started.  Am I right, when we

         16        left we were fixing to take up Revision 4?

         17             (Off-the-record discussion.)

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If everybody will

         19        take their seat we'll get underway.  We are on

         20        Revision No. 4.

         21             (Gavel.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are on Revision No. 4.  We

         23        are ready to go.  Commissioner Mills for Style and

         24        Drafting.  There are three amendments on the table.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, the -- this


          1        again, is a restructure of the Cabinet.  The long

          2        amendment that you were talking about, I think, was

          3        prepared by staff and it is a conforming amendment

          4        because this proposal takes the term Secretary of

          5        State out of the Constitution and changes Treasurer

          6        and Comptroller to Chief Financial Officer.  So what

          7        this amendment does is conforms the use of that

          8        language elsewhere in the Constitution.  So, if you

          9        passed the substance of this restructuring, then those

         10        words would be changed elsewhere in the Constitution.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Amendment No. 1

         12        is the conforming amendment being offered by

         13        Commissioner Mills.  And it is a long, thick one, but

         14        I'll ask her to read the title.  But what it does,

         15        basically, as I understand it, Commissioner Mills, is

         16        that it just conforms this to make the language

         17        technically correct for what we have done in the

         18        proposal; is that right?

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.  My

         20        understanding, it was given to me by staff and Style

         21        and Drafting, as we didn't have it at the time that we

         22        were meeting this morning, all it does is change

         23        Secretary of State to Custodian of Records and

         24        wherever there's Treasurer to Chief Financial Officer.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So what you did is


          1        made it consistent with what's proposed, is that

          2        correct, it is a technical change?

          3             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All in favor, say aye.

          5        Opposed?

          6             (Verbal vote taken.)

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries, it is amended.

          8        If we have a problem, somebody tell me.  What is it?

          9             (Off-the-record discussion.)

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We are going to

         11        un-pass that for a minute.  Do I need to or can I just

         12        treat it as an amendment to the amendment?  All right.

         13        I would like to ask you to reconsider the vote we just

         14        took.  All in favor, say aye.  All opposed, like sign.

         15             (Verbal vote taken.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, we need to offer an

         17        amendment to the amendment which is on the table.  And

         18        I'll ask them to read first the amendment and then the

         19        amendment to the amendment.  You may proceed.

         20             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         21        Drafting, delete everything and insert, Article II,

         22        Section HH; Article III, Sections 8B, 16B and F, 19F;

         23        Article IV, Sections 3B, 4, 7A, and 8; Article VIII,

         24        Section 1I; Article IX, Section 2; Article XI,

         25        Sections 2C, 3, 4, 5A, and 6E; and Article 12, Section


          1        9C, Florida Constitution, and create Section 22,

          2        Article 12, Florida Constitution, providing for

          3        membership of the Florida Cabinet.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, this is the

          5        one that makes the staff recommended changes to make

          6        the language conform with the titles with what we have

          7        passed.  The amendment to that is the next amendment.

          8        It is an amendment to that amendment, which has also

          9        been in an area discovered by the staff.  Would you

         10        read the amendment to the amendment?

         11             READING CLERK:  Amendment to the amendment by the

         12        Committee on Style and Drafting, on Page 9, Line 1,

         13        after "of," insert "free."

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

         15        understand that, it is another technical amendment to

         16        the technical amendment.  All in favor of the

         17        amendment to the amendment, say aye.  Opposed?

         18             (Verbal vote taken.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  Now, we'll vote

         20        on the amendment as amended.  All in favor, say aye.

         21        All opposed?

         22             (Verbal vote taken.)

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  Now, are there

         24        other amendments on the table?  There are no further

         25        amendments on the table?  All right.  We are on the


          1        grouping, which isn't a grouping, I guess the ballot

          2        language.  Commissioner Mills.

          3             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  My understanding is that you

          4        would be voting on the ballot language at this point

          5        and it wouldn't be final passage.  It would not be

          6        final passage, because we aren't doing final passage

          7        on any of them.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  That's correct.

          9        So, the ballot language, we just voted on it?

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  We haven't voted on it.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Would you move the

         12        ballot language?

         13             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I move the ballot language

         14        and this group.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is on your white packet,

         16        Revision 4.  And this is the ballot language for the

         17        Cabinet proposal.  Do you want to briefly explain it,

         18        Commissioner Mills?

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  If you have it in front of

         20        you, the title is, Restructuring the State Cabinet.

         21        What we attempted to do in here is indicate that it

         22        was restructuring the elected Cabinet, identifying

         23        which offices would be part of the elected Cabinet and

         24        which part would be appointed.  And you have the

         25        language in front of you.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in --

          2        everybody understand that?  We are going to have to

          3        vote on this one, I guess.  We can't do this one by

          4        voice vote, can we?  Twenty-two votes.  All right.  If

          5        everybody is ready to vote on the ballot language,

          6        we'll unlock the machine and let's vote.

          7             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's vote on the ballot

          9        language.  Come on, everybody hasn't voted, let's

         10        vote.  Everybody hasn't voted and right now you need

         11        another vote to adopt this.  Somebody changed their

         12        vote.  It was 22.  Who hasn't voted?  It's 21 to 13 at

         13        the moment.  Lock the machine quick, Commissioner

         14        Langley may change his vote.

         15             READING CLERK:  Twenty-two yeas, 12 nays,

         16        Mr. Chairman.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We adopted the ballot

         18        language, and that's what we just adopted.  When we

         19        come back, this is not a grouping -- oh, there is the

         20        other vote that wasn't here.  This is not a grouping.

         21        Commissioner Scott, we just adopted the ballot

         22        language, we had already adopted the amendments, and

         23        we now have moved to Revision No. 5.  Revision No. 5,

         24        would you read it please?

         25             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and


          1        Drafting, on Page 2, Lines 19 through 20; on Page 3,

          2        Lines 2, 5, 12, 13, 15, and 30; on Page 4, Lines 1,

          3        9-10, 14-15 and 19; and Page 5, Line 13, delete the

          4        word Secretary of State and insert Custodian of State

          5        Records.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Which one are you on?  Just a

          7        minute.

          8             (Off-the-record discussion.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read the proposal.

         10             READING CLERK:  Revision 5 creates

         11        reapportionment and redistricting commission to

         12        establish voting districts, mandate single-member

         13        legislative districts.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, from Style

         15        and Drafting, Commissioner Lowndes.

         16             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  This is not from Style and

         17        Drafting, Mr. Chairman.  I would like to move that we

         18        separate the two proposals that are grouped.  The two

         19        proposals that are grouped are the appointed

         20        commission proposal which deals with single-member

         21        districts and the second proposal, 155, which deals

         22        with single-member districts.

         23             One of the proposals says that the commission

         24        appoints the districts and the other proposal says the

         25        Legislature appoints the districts, and these two


          1        proposals, as grouped, are in conflict with one

          2        another.  And I suggest that we separate them so that

          3        we can vote on them separately rather than voting on

          4        something which is in conflict.  So I would like to

          5        move that we separate the two proposals.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There's a motion,

          7        and it takes 22 votes.  Is there a motion -- there is

          8        a motion to separate these two proposals.

          9        Commissioner Connor.

         10             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Point of clarification,

         11        Mr. Chairman.  You have indicated that, to accomplish

         12        that purpose it would take 22 votes.  Am I correct

         13        that if the vote on the grouping failed, that they

         14        would be segmented?  In other words, it wouldn't

         15        require 22 votes in order to segment the proposals and

         16        your motion requires an affirmative 22 votes?

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, the answer to that is

         18        that if we don't separate it and you vote on them and

         19        they don't get 22 votes as on the drafting, I mean, on

         20        this, they would travel as separate items anyway.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So, either way, you can do it

         23        either way you want to.  You can either vote not to

         24        group them and not get 22 votes and they would both go

         25        forward as single proposals, the same way the motion


          1        that was just made required, you are right on that,

          2        and your inquiry is answered that way.

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So, we can do it however you

          5        like, we can separate them by not giving it 22 votes,

          6        which isn't an indication of how you are going to vote

          7        on the final on either one of them, or you can do this

          8        motion.  Commissioner Scott, I think at lunch you

          9        thought the motion might be more appropriate.

         10             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Well, Mr. Chairman, the

         11        motion, if I might suggest, would be that these

         12        proposals be separated and then they are readmitted to

         13        Style and Drafting basically -- I mean, that's what we

         14        are doing, and to be brought as separate proposals.

         15        And that's basically -- so, it's not doing anything,

         16        this can't be a final vote right now anyway on the

         17        issue.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, my point was, you can

         19        do it either way you want to, you can do it in a

         20        motion or you can just vote not to group them, and

         21        that would result in the same thing.

         22             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Going to Style and Drafting?

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes, as separate items.  So,

         24        we can go ahead and vote on the motion, and then it'll

         25        have the same thing, and then we won't have to vote on


          1        anything but the ballot language, which we can defer.

          2        Is that right?  Okay.

          3             Does everybody understand?  We are going to vote

          4        on the motion to separate.  If this motion is adopted,

          5        neither one of these will be considered further until

          6        they come back from Style and Drafting; is that clear?

          7        They will go to Style and Drafting as separate

          8        proposals and you will redraft the ballot language.

          9        Do a voice vote.  All in favor, say aye.  Opposed?

         10             (Verbal vote taken.)

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries with 22 votes,

         12        therefore we'll now move on to Revision No. 6.  First

         13        of all, I don't guess we need to read these, what we

         14        need is to have you as Chairman of Style and Drafting

         15        tell us what each one of these is and what the

         16        grouping is.  Commissioner Mills, Style and Drafting.

         17             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this group

         18        deals with election reform, what we have generally

         19        referred to as ballot access, public campaign

         20        financing and other revisions to the election process.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This is grouping

         22        proposals number -- Committee Substitute for Proposal

         23        16 by the Committee on Ethics and Election; Proposal

         24        32 by Commissioner Ford-Coats; Commissioners' 79 by

         25        Committee on Ethics and Elections; Proposal 148 by


          1        Commissioner Ford-Coates; Proposal 149 by Commissioner

          2        Scott; Proposal 158 by Commissioner Marshall.  That is

          3        the grouping.  There are amendments on the table.

          4             READING CLERK:  On the desk, Mr. Chairman.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read the first amendment.

          6             READING CLERK:  Revision 6, related to increase

          7        ballot access by election reforms, by Style and

          8        Drafting, on Page 2, Line 10, delete the comma.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right. Which amendment is

         10        this to, which proposal is it addressed to,

         11        Commissioner Mills?

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, they have been

         13        drafted together, so in your major packet --

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So, this is on Line 2

         15        in your major packet, Page 2, Line 10, is the first

         16        amendment and it is to delete the comma; is that

         17        right?

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Correct.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If everybody will

         20        turn in their packet to Revision 6, this first

         21        amendment is on Page 2, Line 10, delete the comma.

         22        All in favor, say aye.

         23             (Verbal vote taken.)

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Then the next one is on

         25        Revision 6, as it relates -- read it please.


          1             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

          2        Drafting, on Page 2, Line 11, delete the comma.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is on Page 2, Line 11,

          4        delete the comma.  All in favor, say aye.

          5             (Verbal vote taken.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The comma is deleted.  Now,

          7        any further amendments on the table?

          8             READING CLERK:  On the desk, Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No further amendments on the

         10        table.  Oh, there are, okay.  Read the next amendment.

         11             READING CLERK:  By Committee on Style and

         12        Drafting, on Page 3, Line 6, delete the word elections

         13        and insert election.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Somebody want to

         15        explain that?

         16             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I would ask

         17        Commissioner Ford-Coates to --

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Ford-Coates.

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  The question is, were you

         20        deleting the "s" in elections?  You don't want to do

         21        that?  So, Style and Drafting didn't pass that.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So, it's withdrawn.

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is withdrawn.  Is there

         25        another amendment?


          1             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Barnett, on Page

          2        1, Line 2, delete, can be no, and insert, cannot be.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  That's on the ballot

          4        language.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The ballot language, okay,

          6        turn to the ballot language.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  They just handed this out.

          8        Mr. Chairman, you will see the ballot language for

          9        Revision 6 has 76 words, this is an effort to find a

         10        word.  And the language says, can be no, and we have

         11        made that, cannot be, so we have taken three words and

         12        made it two, and we are now down to 75 words.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

         14        understand the amendment by Commissioner Barnett?  All

         15        in favor, say aye.

         16             (Verbal vote taken.)

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted.

         18        And that is the ballot language.  Now, are there any

         19        further amendments?

         20             READING CLERK:  None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  We are ready to go now

         22        on grouping as amended.  All right.  To go as a group

         23        on the ballot, that's where we are at the moment.

         24        Commissioner Langley.

         25             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I would like to make a


          1        Commissioner Lowndes' motion that Propositions 32, 79,

          2        149 be removed from this proposal, we are trying to

          3        get 32 as voting age.  I'm trying to get the

          4        noncontroversial things out of them.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  What you think is

          6        noncontroversial somebody may not think is.  It's your

          7        opinion.

          8             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I think that everybody

          9        believes that persons 18 years of age can vote in

         10        Florida.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  They do.

         12             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Okay, that is the law.

         13        The second one, I believe, is ballot access.  I don't

         14        think that it received but two or three negative

         15        votes.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It didn't receive any, it

         17        passed 33 to nothing.

         18             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  All right.  Well, pardon

         19        my recollection.  And the other is whether or not the

         20        prospective Governor and Cabinet has to name a

         21        Lieutenant Governor, I don't think that there's a

         22        whole lot of controversy about that. I would like

         23        those removed because those are good things that ought

         24        to be in there.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You don't need to convince


          1        anybody.

          2             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Does that sound familiar?

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You know, you might lose a

          4        vote and it'll be 32 to 1 or something.  It was 33 to

          5        nothing or 31 to nothing.  You are moving --

          6             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Those may go down with an

          7        otherwise heavily burdened ship.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Are you moving to make

          9        them --

         10             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  A separate proposal.  Now,

         11        bear in mind, we have got 11 or 12, and this may be

         12        No. 13 and we may end up with 15 and then we may go

         13        back and pair some of those, I don't know, that is up

         14        to the body.  But right now I hate to see things that

         15        ought to be done confused with things that ought not

         16        be done.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I understand.  He's removing

         18        them from what was recommended by the Style and

         19        Drafting Committee, proposal -- or moving to do this,

         20        Proposal 32 and Proposals 79 and 149.  So, those

         21        three, he's suggesting or moving that we remove them

         22        from Revision 6 and that they be placed somewhere else

         23        at a later time; is that correct?

         24             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Yes, sir.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, does everybody


          1        understand the motion?  Style and Drafting recommended

          2        that they all be together, he's moved that we take

          3        these three out.  Okay, anybody want to speak to it?

          4        Commissioner Evans is first.

          5             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  Just a question.  We are not

          6        grouping those three that we are voting to remove out,

          7        right, they are just moved out and they are separate?

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Not yet.  We aren't grouping

          9        them, we are just moving them out of this group as I

         10        understand it.

         11             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  Okay.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, anybody else

         13        want to be heard on this?  Anybody in opposition?

         14        Commissioner Ford-Coates, you raised your hand, do you

         15        want to speak?  All right, we'll have to take a vote

         16        on this, it'll be 22 votes.  Open the machine and

         17        let's vote.

         18             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         20        the vote.

         21             READING CLERK:  Sixteen yeas, 20 nays,

         22        Mr. Chairman.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It fails.  We are now on

         24        Revision 6, the motion by Style and Drafting to adopt

         25        it as a single revision on the ballot.  All right.


          1        Ready to vote?  Unlock the machine and let's vote.

          2        What we are doing now is grouping, Revision 6, the

          3        grouping recommended by Style and Drafting is what we

          4        are on at the moment.

          5             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everybody hasn't voted yet,

          7        we are still missing two.  Lock the machine and

          8        announce the vote.

          9             READING CLERK:  Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,

         10        Mr. Chairman.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The grouping

         12        fails by one vote, which means that they all travel

         13        separately; isn't that right, Commissioner Thompson?

         14        Okay.

         15             (Inaudible response.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You didn't vote?  Well, I

         17        think somebody might do you the privilege of moving to

         18        reconsider it.  (Pause.)  No such fairness being

         19        offered from that side, that doesn't seem quite right,

         20        somebody ought to give her an opportunity to vote.

         21        Commissioner Smith.

         22             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Mr. Chairman, because this

         23        failed with people on the 21 being the non-prevailing

         24        side, that's right, that was the ruling last week when

         25        I asked, it did not prevail.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anybody can move to

          2        reconsider it.

          3             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I vote to reconsider it, I'm

          4        on the prevailing side, I mean non-prevailing side.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You can be on any side I'm

          6        informed by the Secretary, and there's no debate.  We

          7        are on a motion to reconsider at the moment.  You are

          8        recognized, Commissioner Langley.

          9             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  The substitute motion I

         10        move to reconsider.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Oh my gosh.

         12             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I wanted that privilege

         13        for Commissioner Barnett.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anyway, we are fixing to

         15        reconsider it regardless of how we got there so

         16        Commissioner Barnett gets a chance to vote.  All

         17        right.  Unlock the machine now and let's vote.  This

         18        is a majority vote on this one.

         19             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Unlock the machine and

         21        announce the vote.

         22             READING CLERK:  Twenty-two yeas, 12 nays,

         23        Mr. Chairman.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now we are on the

         25        reconsideration.  This time it takes 22 votes to


          1        maintain this as a grouping.  So, unlock -- yes,

          2        Commissioner Scott.

          3             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Can we just say what's in

          4        the grouping now?

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We did that, and we voted on

          6        it, and we are reconsidering it.

          7             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Okay.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everything that's in there

          9        that's recommended from Style and Drafting is there.

         10        And to keep it from going singly, then you vote to put

         11        it on the ballot.  All right.  Everybody, unlock the

         12        machine and let's vote.

         13             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         15        the vote.

         16             READING CLERK:  Twenty-two yeas, 14 nays,

         17        Mr. Chairman.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you have grouped

         19        it.  Now, we move to Revision No. 7.  All right.

         20        Commissioner Mills.

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this group

         22        contains a -- the series of tax exemptions that the

         23        Commission passed, one related to tangible property,

         24        one related to a tax exemption granted for

         25        conservation easements, and one was a tax exemption,


          1        broadening tax exemption for governmental uses of

          2        municipal properties, and that related to the airport

          3        and seaport debate.

          4             That is combined with another local government

          5        issue, which is the citizen access to local

          6        governments to be able to talk to local government

          7        officials.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

          9        understand?  There's no amendments on this, no

         10        amendments on the table.  So, we are on this revision,

         11        Revision No. 7, which includes No. 96, which

         12        prescribing tax and communications, that is the ex

         13        parte communication provision; Committee Substitutes

         14        for 112 and 124 by the Committee on Finance and Tax

         15        providing for exemption from ad valorem from certain

         16        tangible personal property and mobile homes; 135 by

         17        Commissioner Henderson allowing a local option tax

         18        exemption for owners of land used for conservation

         19        purposes; and Committee Substitute for Proposals 49,

         20        103 and 185 by Finance and Tax, revising the

         21        requirements for exempting municipally-owned property

         22        allowing the Legislature to exempt from taxation

         23        property owned by a municipality and special district

         24        and used for an airport, seaport or public purposes as

         25        defined by law.


          1             And those are the ones that are in Revision No. 7

          2        that's now before you.  Commissioner -- who was --

          3        Commissioner Mills yields to the question from

          4        Commissioner Scott.

          5             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  When we are doing this, we

          6        are looking at the ballot language too.  I wasn't

          7        clear on that last one that we ever --

          8             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  There were no amendments.

          9             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  There were no amendments, so

         10        that is a part of what we are doing with the group,

         11        and I just wanted to clarify that.

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Right.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Somebody told me, I think,

         14        you are right, Commissioner Scott, somebody says

         15        there's supposed to have been an amendment.  And

         16        that's what you are asking, isn't it?  But it is as to

         17        the ballot language.

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, his question

         19        was, does what we voted on in the 22 votes include the

         20        ballot language, and the answer is yes, that's what we

         21        have been saying.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes, that's correct.

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  And it was amended, the one

         24        with Commissioner Barnett.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That is correct.  But now we


          1        are on the next one.

          2             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Correct.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are on Revision 7, on

          4        which there are no amendments on the table, as I

          5        understand it.  But I was told that there's supposed

          6        to be one on the table; is that right, to the ballot

          7        language or what?  Bear with us just a moment.

          8             (Pause.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are on Revision No. 7,

         10        which includes the ballot language, which is in your

         11        packet.  It is in a different packet, but they have

         12        got it.  It is in this same packet on my desk, isn't

         13        it?  All right, there's no amendments.

         14             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I guess staff

         15        wants to make sure that everybody is looking at the

         16        ballot language that we are handing out, right?

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is in the packet, No. 7.

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Okay.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And we are ready to proceed

         20        to vote on this grouping, together with the ballot

         21        language, unless there's further debate.

         22             All right.  Let's unlock the machine and vote on

         23        Revision No. 7, which is the local government

         24        revisions.

         25             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

          2        the vote.

          3             READING CLERK:  Thirty-two yeas, 3 nays,

          4        Mr. Chairman.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you send this

          6        to Style and Drafting.  Now we move to Revision No. 8,

          7        which doesn't -- I don't know, it doesn't require

          8        anything, does it?

          9             (Pause.)

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  While everybody is

         11        putting their guns in the holster, I would like to

         12        take this opportunity, Senator Jim Horne is with us in

         13        the gallery with the Crystal Springs Elementary fourth

         14        graders to observe the process.  Would you young

         15        people stand up and let us see you?

         16             (Applause.)

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We thank you for being with

         18        us and we thank Senator Horne for having you here.

         19        The only thing that we vote on on the firearms at this

         20        time is the ballot language.  Commissioner Connor.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Mr. Chairman, I have a

         22        proposed amendment.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  To what?

         24             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  To 167, yes, sir, I have a

         25        substitute amendment.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You have got an amendment to

          2        the proposal?

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Now, is the time he's

          5        presenting an amendment to the proposal.  The proposal

          6        is No. 8 dealing with local option firearms, would you

          7        read the proposal first?

          8             READING CLERK:  Revision 8 relating to local

          9        option waiting period and criminal background check

         10        for firearm purchases.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This original

         12        proposal was adopted 24 to 11.  There's now on the

         13        table an amendment by Commissioner Connor.

         14             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read the amendment, please.

         16             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Connor, on

         17        Page 21, after Line 14, through Page 2, Line 6, strike

         18        all of said lines and insert lengthy amendment.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The lengthy

         20        amendment, Commissioner Connor, I think I had

         21        previously asked you was this the same amendment that

         22        you offered.

         23             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  It is.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But you withdrew it and it

         25        was not voted on.  So consequently, it's not out of


          1        order, it hadn't been voted on.

          2             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  That's my understanding.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's my ruling.  And you

          4        have offered it as an amendment or a substitute to the

          5        proposal?

          6             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  As a substitute,

          7        Mr. Chairman.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand

          9        that?  This is the same provision that we debated and

         10        Commissioner Connor wants to explain it to you again

         11        because he wants to replace the one we have got with

         12        it.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Mr. Chairman, Members of

         14        the Commission, for those of you who are concerned

         15        about closing the gun show loophole, I believe that

         16        this is the way to do it.  You will recall that I

         17        proffered this amendment last time and withdrew it in

         18        the aftermath of discussion based on some questions

         19        raised by Commissioner Smith.  Let me make these

         20        observations, if I may.  First of all, 167, in its

         21        present form, does nothing, I repeat, nothing to close

         22        the so-called gun show loophole.

         23             Number two, for what's been represented to you to

         24        be a serious problem by virtue of this gun show

         25        loophole, all 167 would do is to make that crime a


          1        misdemeanor.  The proposal that I'm offering at this

          2        time would make it a felony offense for anyone engaged

          3        in the business to sell a firearm at a gun show or on

          4        the premises at a flea market who fails to get the

          5        requisite background check and to require the

          6        requisite waiting period.

          7             Now, if indeed this is a serious problem that

          8        causes a serious threat to public safety, I would

          9        submit to you that we do not want to reduce the

         10        seriousness of the crime, such as Commissioner Rundle

         11        would do by virtue of her proposal.  So, as a

         12        consequence, if you violate this proposal, the person

         13        who violates that would be guilty of a felony offense.

         14             Commissioner Smith inquired last time about the

         15        language "occasional."  And I wanted to see what the

         16        history had been with respect to that.  This is

         17        language that adopts the Federal language, the term

         18        "occasional," it means every once in a while,

         19        intermittently and without regularity, and has been

         20        applied by Federal courts very much in the same way as

         21        reasonable land standards.  In other words, it's based

         22        on the specific facts and circumstances of the case

         23        and becomes a matter of fact for determination by the

         24        jury.

         25             There haven't been any problems, Commissioner


          1        Smith, as I understand it, in the implementation of

          2        execution of the Federal law in that regard.  So, what

          3        this proposal would do, very simply, is to close the

          4        gun show loophole, would require that those engaged in

          5        the business must retain the requisite background

          6        check and waiting period, failing which the person is

          7        guilty of a felony offense.

          8             And if indeed this is a serious problem, such as

          9        has been represented, it ought to be a felony offense

         10        and not limited to a misdemeanor.  I encourage you,

         11        and as I mentioned, the proposal on the table, 167,

         12        for which this is a substitute, does not even mention

         13        the gun show issue.  And I would submit to you, that

         14        with respect to Commissioner Rundle's previous

         15        comments, we were merely dealing with a vocal minority

         16        here in opposition to her proposal.

         17             And I would suggest to you that it is a very

         18        vocal majority, but whether you believe these folks to

         19        be in the majority or minority, I think we can all

         20        recognize and agree that these are political activists

         21        who will vote no on the proposal with a negative

         22        impact on the rest of the ballot.  So I urge you in

         23        the strongest of terms to please support the

         24        substitute amendment.  Thank you.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The substitute


          1        amendment.  Commissioner Sundberg.  You are next,

          2        Commissioner Smith.

          3             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Commissioner Connor for a

          4        question.

          5             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

          6             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  The occasional sell is

          7        modified, and I'm on Page 2 of your proposed

          8        amendment, your substitute.  It says, Including a

          9        person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, et

         10        cetera, for the enhancement of personal collection or

         11        for a hobby or who makes an occasional sell of all or

         12        a part of a personal collection of firearms.

         13             Isn't that going to be a nightmare for

         14        enforcement?  How do the enforcement authorities know

         15        whether or not the person is doing it out of a

         16        personal collection or for hobby?  And I assume these

         17        things move from place to place.  How would they make

         18        that determination?

         19             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Through the typical

         20        investigative resources that are available to law

         21        enforcement.  It has not apparently been a problem at

         22        all under Federal law.  This language mirrors the

         23        Federal law, it becomes a case specific kind of

         24        determination and becomes a fact specific

         25        determination by the jury.


          1             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Well, but would you

          2        perceive that these investigative tools, that they

          3        would screen everyone that's going to be involved in a

          4        gun show or a flea market, as to whether or not they

          5        are doing it for a personal hobby?  I just don't know

          6        how you make those determinations, since I assume they

          7        move around from place to place.

          8             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Well, they do move around

          9        from place to place, but law enforcement is involved

         10        in typical law enforcement investigative techniques.

         11        This has not proved to be a problem at the Federal law

         12        level.  Whether or not somebody is engaged in the

         13        occasional sell and whether or not it is for the

         14        enhancement for a personal collection is determined on

         15        a case by case, fact specific kind of instance.

         16             But for example, on the sell out of the back of

         17        the car that we saw on the video that Commissioner

         18        Rundle presented to us, classic example of what is an

         19        enforcement problem.  You can't sell firearms out of

         20        the back of a vehicle and be engaged in the business,

         21        that is a Federal crime as far as that goes.  So, what

         22        we had was an enforcement problem I would submit to

         23        you in that instance, not a law problem.  But if we

         24        want to close the gun show loophole, I would submit to

         25        you, this will do it.


          1             The proposal as drafted doesn't even reference

          2        gun shows, it is not self-executing, and to the extent

          3        that it's intended to address a problem, it actually

          4        has the effect of reducing the severity of the crime,

          5        which I would submit is the wrong way to go.

          6             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  But this does not

          7        contemplate, does it, your substitute doesn't

          8        contemplate that these people who are at these shows

          9        or are doing the occasional sales have to get a

         10        license, essentially, exempting them from enforcement?

         11             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Correct, only those who are

         12        engaged in the business, which means -- and this is

         13        taken from the Federal law, which means, a person who

         14        devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in

         15        firearms as a regular course of trade of business with

         16        the principal objective of livelihood and profit

         17        through repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.

         18             So, we have a very -- I think a very well -- a

         19        definition with very well defined and understandable

         20        parameters, but we exempt out the person who

         21        occasionally, in order to enhance a personal

         22        collection, makes a sale or exchange at a gun show.

         23             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  But if Dick Langley shows

         24        up at the Tallahassee Flea Market with his personal

         25        collection, which I understand is exquisite and


          1        extensive, there would be nothing that would require

          2        him to be licensed?

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  That's correct, that's

          4        exactly right.  And that's the intent, in other words,

          5        we do not seek to sweep into the net here those who

          6        make occasional sales or whose purpose is simply to

          7        enhance a personal collection.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Now, we have debated

          9        this before, but Commissioner Smith, you are

         10        recognized since nobody spoke up.

         11             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you.  First of all,

         12        let me say that, with regard to your research that you

         13        have done on the word "occasional," I too have taken a

         14        look at the Federal law.  And I understand that the

         15        Federal courts have dealt with this on a case-by-case

         16        basis.

         17             The problem that I have, Commissioner Connor, is

         18        that let's impute good motives to everyone.  One

         19        sixty-seven is targeting the criminals who are trying

         20        to have an avenue to get their hands on guns to rob me

         21        and you.  What I see with the proposed amendment is

         22        that you are targeting the gun -- the people who are

         23        violating the law with regard to being licensed.

         24             In other words, this hammers a felony on those

         25        individuals who are trying to circumvent the law by


          1        not being licensed and doing more than an occasional

          2        sale.

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  That's exactly right.

          4             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Okay.  So, my problem is

          5        that, while I don't care whether it is a Constitution

          6        amendment or legislation, I want to target the

          7        criminal, so that my concern is if we allow H.T. Smith

          8        to take his gun collection to the gun show, and his

          9        gun collection is 14 guns that some militant extremist

         10        can walk up to H.T. Smith, find out the person who

         11        doesn't have a license, buy the gun and go out and

         12        kill somebody because he doesn't have to have the

         13        background check.

         14             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Well, if you buy a gun

         15        under false pretenses now, Mr. Smith, that is a felony

         16        offense.

         17             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  But the person is dead.  In

         18        other words, I get the gun -- the criminal buys the

         19        gun, he goes out and he kills someone.

         20             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I'm the first to agree with

         21        you that the existing laws need to be better enforced

         22        and more vigorously enforced, but what we have had

         23        represented to us is that there's a crisis at the gun

         24        shows that causing a public safety problem.

         25             One sixty-seven as proposed does nothing to


          1        address that crisis, doesn't augment enforcement in

          2        any way, is not self-executing in any respect, and

          3        says, For those who are helping to create that crisis,

          4        you do the crime, we are going to reduce your time,

          5        because we are just mitigating this down to a

          6        misdemeanor offense.

          7             That's wrong if it is an offense of the magnitude

          8        that's represented and causes the public health hazard

          9        that's been represented, by golly, these folks ought

         10        to be saddled with a felony offense.

         11             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Well, my last question to

         12        you is, honesty has been your hallmark in these

         13        debates, would you agree that based upon the fact that

         14        a criminal can walk in and buy a gun from someone who

         15        abuses this so-called occasional rule, that that too

         16        doesn't deal with closing a gun show loophole?

         17             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  That criminal who buys the

         18        gun does so in violation of the existing State and

         19        Federal law, and then what we need is for Commissioner

         20        Rundle to enforce that law to prevent a reoccurrence.

         21             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  So, the criminal has the

         22        gun, the criminal can do the time as opposed to a

         23        three-day waiting period and a check where the

         24        criminal can't get the gun.  In other words, the

         25        object is, keep the gun out of the criminal's hand.


          1             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  And my proposal, my

          2        proposed substitute amendment will do more to prevent

          3        that by a long shot than the existing Proposal 165

          4        will do.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We don't have much time left.

          6        Commissioner Lowndes.

          7             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I have a question for

          8        Commissioner Connor.

          9             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

         10             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I don't understand what

         11        you mean by when you say it's changing the crime from

         12        a misdemeanor to a felony.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you for asking.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Only take a minute to explain

         15        it, please, we are out of time.

         16             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Under the existing law,

         17        counties can only declare offenses to be misdemeanors,

         18        counties don't have the authority under existing law

         19        to make conduct felonious in nature.  And what this

         20        proposal does is bring this violation that we would be

         21        creating within the ambit of existing law which makes

         22        it a felony to violate the law.

         23             So, counties, under Commissioner Rundle's

         24        proposal, don't even have the authority to make an

         25        offense a felony, period, they just can't do it.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          2        Rundle should have an opportunity since it's her

          3        proposal and all the time has been used.  Commissioner

          4        Rundle.

          5             COMMISIONER RUNDLE:  Commissioners, let me just

          6        address the issue about the reduction of a crime, I

          7        think there's a lot of confusion on that issue.  Right

          8        now Florida Statutes say that it is a felony for a

          9        retailer or a licensed arms dealer to sell without a

         10        three-day waiting period or background check.  It does

         11        not apply to those who don't have licenses, who are

         12        not engaged in the business, those are all red herring

         13        languages that allow the loophole presently to exist.

         14             So, right now, it is not a crime.  So, what we

         15        are trying to do is allow local communities to make it

         16        a crime consistent with what every other store owner

         17        or law-abiding citizen has to do.  I would be the last

         18        one to stand up here and say, Let's reduce it, let's

         19        not make it a crime, let's make a felony a

         20        misdemeanor, that simply isn't the case.

         21             What we are trying to do is cut off one of the

         22        many sources that allows criminals to have free

         23        access, no questions asked, no paper trace, no rules

         24        apply, walk into a gun show or up to the van that

         25        Commissioner Freidin told you she saw personally, and


          1        buy a gun, and then it's too late, like Commissioner

          2        Smith says.  We are trying to close off one of those

          3        sources.  This amendment doesn't do it.

          4             And Commissioner Connor has said it's a repeat of

          5        the Federal law, and that's a part of the problem.

          6        The Federal law applies to licensed dealers engaged in

          7        the business.  We are trying to say no, it's anyone

          8        who sells in a public place has to at least do what

          9        store owners do.  And by the way, gun store owners

         10        support 167.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are on the substitute

         12        amendment, and no, I think you had -- in those

         13        questions, Commissioner Connor, you got an extra four

         14        minutes already.  Commissioner Marshall, did you rise

         15        for a question?

         16             COMMISSIONER MARSHALL:  I do, Mr. Chairman, to

         17        Commissioner Rundle.  You did not address the question

         18        of one of Commissioner Connor's points, the

         19        contamination of the amendments that we advance to the

         20        ballot, and I'm concerned about that, how the public

         21        would respond to this measure, the effect that it

         22        might have on other measures.

         23             COMMISIONER RUNDLE:  I feel that this has a great

         24        point of support from Florida citizens and I think the

         25        history has proven that.  If you look back to 1987


          1        when the Legislature said, Leave it up to the citizens

          2        to vote, put it on the ballot that is the waiting

          3        period for handguns that presently exists in the

          4        Constitution.  The citizens overwhelmingly supported

          5        it by 84 percent.

          6             We have also had several polls that have occurred

          7        since our commission began where it shows its citizens

          8        support proposals that require waiting periods and

          9        criminal background checks.  Florida citizens do

         10        believe in some communities in this state that there

         11        is a crisis.  In my community there is a crisis, in

         12        Orlando there is a crisis.  And a lot of those

         13        citizens ought to have the ability to say, There is a

         14        crisis in my community, I support this effort, it's

         15        waiting period and background checks.

         16             That language has been tested, I think that it

         17        stands alone right now in its own grouping, it doesn't

         18        contaminate anything else, I think, in fact, it

         19        carries much of the other proposals that are going to

         20        be on the ballot.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  I think we are

         22        ready to vote on the substitute amendment.  Let's open

         23        the machine and record your vote.  This is on the

         24        substitute amendment.

         25             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

          2        the vote.

          3             READING CLERK:  Twelve yeas, 23 nays,

          4        Mr. Chairman.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The substitute amendment

          6        fails.  We are now on the proposal for which there's

          7        nothing left to vote on, I guess; is that right?

          8        Ballot language, excuse me.  The only thing that we

          9        are voting on here is the ballot language which is in

         10        your packet on ballot language.  And that is -- it's

         11        on Revision No. 8, local option to firearms.

         12        Commissioner Sundberg.

         13             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  For a question of the

         14        Chair.  You, and this, on several occasions, you said

         15        all we have to vote on is the ballot language, but we

         16        are not voting on the proposal?

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.

         18             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  So that, if for any

         19        reason the proposal itself gets amended or doesn't

         20        carry, we have ballot language to go with either

         21        nothing or with something that has changed?

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, it travels with the

         23        proposal later, Commissioner Sundberg.  We don't have

         24        to worry about that yet.  It's not going to be voted

         25        on for final, but when it's voted on for final it will


          1        have the ballot language attached to it, it will be

          2        part of what we vote on.

          3             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Mr. Chairman, I'm bumping

          4        up to 65 years of age and I want to be sure I'm still

          5        alive when we finally get around to voting on these

          6        things.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I'm bumping on 68, and I can

          8        assure you that if I'm alive, you will be alive unless

          9        you get drunk between now and the time we both die.

         10             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  You too.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But I can't move it any

         12        faster than I am.  Everybody read the ballot language?

         13        If there are no amendments, all in favor of the ballot

         14        language, say aye.  Opposed?

         15             (Verbal vote taken.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The ballot language passes.

         17        We move to Revision 9, which has several in it.  Would

         18        you read it please?

         19             READING CLERK:  Revision No. 9, relating to

         20        individual rights and religious freedom.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This also, and I'll read them

         22        off quickly, includes Proposal 5 by Commissioner

         23        Planas, prohibiting discrimination on national origin;

         24        Proposal 11 by Commissioner Freidin, providing that

         25        persons may not be deprived of their rights because of


          1        gender; Committee Substitute for 14 by the Committee

          2        on Declaration of Rights and Freidin, changing the

          3        term physical handicap to physical disability; and

          4        Proposal 187 by Commissioner Connor, limiting

          5        conditions for restrictions on the free exercise of

          6        religion.

          7             Commissioner Mills, you are recognized from Style

          8        and Drafting.

          9             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, the

         10        recommendation for grouping includes the basic rights

         11        that you read, religious freedom, they are both in

         12        Article I, Section 2, and Article I, Section 3.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Let's have your

         14        attention please.  We have got to get moving to keep

         15        Commissioner Sundberg and me and Commissioners

         16        Barkdull and Marshall alive.  All right.  Commissioner

         17        Mills.

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, I understand that

         19        there is a -- will be a motion by Commissioner Connor

         20        or others to separate these two.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But there are no amendments

         22        on the table; is that correct?

         23             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Connor on Page 1,

         24        Lines 28 and 29, delete the words, The state or any

         25        political subdivision or agency thereof, and insert, A


          1        governmental entity.

          2             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  That as it relates to

          3        Proposal 187, Mr. Chairman, and the purpose, very

          4        simply, is to correct a technical glitch, as I

          5        understand it, the term, The state or its political

          6        subdivisions, may not include a city, and so the

          7        desire was to substitute the language, a governmental

          8        entity may not, so that no governmental entity can.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You are absolutely right,

         10        subdivision doesn't include municipal corporations,

         11        but a public entity does, so you are offering a

         12        technical amendment to 187, which is limiting the

         13        restrictions on free exercise of religion to make sure

         14        that it includes all government; is that right?

         15             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  All in favor of the

         17        amended, say aye.  Opposed?

         18             (Verbal vote taken.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  No. 187 is

         20        amended as stated.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Mr. Chairman, if I may --

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do we have any more

         23        amendments?

         24             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Connor, on Line

         25        1, Line 31, after the word "rule," insert "or law."


          1             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  On No. 187, explain the

          3        amendment, Commissioner Connor.

          4             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  There was a concern about

          5        whether or not a rule of general application also

          6        included a law of general application, and so we are

          7        providing any rule or law of general application.

          8        Again that's technical in nature, Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Anybody on Style

         10        and Drafting have any comments on that?  If not, all

         11        in favor, say aye.  Opposed?

         12             (Verbal vote taken.)

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  No. 187 has the

         14        two amendments so far.  Any more amendments on the

         15        table?

         16             READING CLERK:  None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There are no

         18        further amendments on the desk.  Commissioner Connor,

         19        you are recognized for a motion.

         20             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.  Mr. Chairman, I

         21        move that we divide the ballot proposal so as to

         22        segment Proposal 187 away from the rest of the group.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         24        Mills.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Just to clarify the motion.


          1        This motion would leave the rest of those proposals

          2        grouped and you would remove religious freedom.  Okay.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does everybody

          4        understand the motion?  Does anybody want to speak to

          5        the motion?  I think the motion is pretty

          6        self-evident.  Commissioner Connor moves to take out

          7        No. 187 and leave all of the rest of them intact.  And

          8        if he's successful, then we'll vote on keeping all of

          9        the rest of them there.

         10             All right.  If you are ready to vote on this

         11        motion, it'll be on the machine.  It is a motion to

         12        remove Proposal 187, limiting additions for

         13        restriction on the free exercise of religion on this

         14        particular proposal.  And at this point it would leave

         15        it as a single proposal unless it's grouped again.

         16        All right.  Ready to vote, open the machine and let's

         17        vote.

         18             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  One person -- now

         20        everybody has voted.  Lock the machine and announce

         21        the vote.

         22             READING CLERK:  Twenty-nine yeas, 6 nays,

         23        Mr. Chairman.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  It's moved off.

         25        Now, we revert back to the motion as relating to the


          1        other items in Revision 9 and it is on grouping now

          2        and ballot language, which is also there, both items.

          3        Commissioner Scott, you are recognized.

          4             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Mr. Chairman, I believe that

          5        where there is a change that both proposals have to go

          6        back for a change in the ballot language for

          7        resubmission; am I right about that?  But you are

          8        still voting on whether they would be grouped?

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct, and the

         10        ballot language on those that are left grouped.  The

         11        one that we moved out, Commissioner Scott, we haven't

         12        voted on the ballot language on it yet, it's moved to

         13        the foot of the class for that.

         14             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Okay.  But the remaining

         15        ballot language would have to be changed to reflect

         16        only what's left in it.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, I am --

         18             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  So, we can't vote on the

         19        ballot language, but the grouping --

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, we can, because I'm

         21        going to interpret him removing that one as removing

         22        the ballot language relating to that one.

         23             (Off-the-record discussion.)

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, that's true, but they

         25        are going to amend it, as I understand it, y'all will


          1        amend it when you come back anyway.  So I don't think

          2        we need to take more time on it unless Commissioner

          3        Freidin does.  Commissioner Freidin.

          4             COMMISSIONER FREIDEN:  I just handed some

          5        language that I think improves that ballot language

          6        significantly to Ms. Kearney and what she was

          7        suggesting is that when this gets referred back to

          8        Style and Drafting we could present my amendment to

          9        Style and Drafting and see now if they would bring it

         10        back in the form that I just redrafted it, so my

         11        preference would be if we could have them both come

         12        back with their own separate ballot language and then

         13        let the Commission vote on that proposed ballot

         14        language.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Langley.

         16             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Well, the problem with

         17        that is that we could be put in the position of voting

         18        twice more on that if we didn't accept that ballot

         19        language, so if it's there let's consider it now.  All

         20        of the other amendments have been presented now, let's

         21        consider this now.

         22             COMMISSIONER FREIDEN:  If we can mechanically get

         23        it on the desk, that's fine with me.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, let's mechanically get

         25        it on the desk.  We can temporarily pass Revision 9


          1        and come back to that for the proper amendment on the

          2        ballot language, and we'll do that unless there's

          3        objections.

          4             Without objections, we'll temporarily pass

          5        Revision 9 and return to it when we get rid of No. 10

          6        and what will now be No. 11.  Commissioner Connor, if

          7        you would get your ballot language ready for 187, it's

          8        going to come back up as soon as we finish Revision

          9        10, and then we are going to revert to 9 and then

         10        yours will be after 9.  So, you will need your ballot

         11        language on the desk when we come back.

         12             Now, we are on Revision No. 10, which is

         13        miscellaneous technical.  Would you read it please?

         14             READING CLERK:  Revision 10, relating to

         15        miscellaneous technical, by the Committee on Style and

         16        Drafting, on Page 7, Line 21, after the word "the,"

         17        insert "governors."

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I'll explain

         20        this, and also let me ask you to clarify, and ask the

         21        Commission to see if we know what we are doing with

         22        regard to those things that we have split.  We have

         23        split two proposals, which will end up being four

         24        proposals.  As I understood, I think what you said

         25        before is once those groups were split they would be


          1        referred to Style and Drafting for redrafting the

          2        ballot language to reflect that new grouping.

          3             Now, if you do that, and Commissioner Scott, you

          4        need to listen to this, because if you do that, it

          5        would require two more votes.  Because you would, I

          6        guess, vote on, consistent with what we did before,

          7        you would vote on the ballot language and then vote on

          8        final passage.  I mean, I don't think this is

          9        substantively a problem, but what you need, the ballot

         10        language does need to be adjusted when these are

         11        split, and we did not vote on the ballot language on

         12        reapportionment when we split it.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Scott.

         14             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  I suggest that we just stick

         15        with where we were, and I don't even know, no position

         16        on any of this.  And the reason is that once these

         17        have been split then they are going to come back and

         18        then they could be either amended into another

         19        revision or group or whatever, or they could be on

         20        their own and the proposals that come back could be

         21        amended because they are now a different proposal.

         22             So I just think that if we just go ahead -- we

         23        are going to come back here with apparently only two,

         24        four instead of two with the ballot language, and then

         25        they would be subject to regrouping if that were the


          1        will or then, if not, then final passage.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Answer your question, on

          3        these items to which we have not adopted ballot

          4        language, which includes the one that we split and the

          5        one we just split, when we come back, we'll vote on

          6        the ballot language before we vote on the final vote.

          7        So, you will have two votes, in effect, but it won't

          8        be on the ballot language because you will have

          9        already have adopted it probably.  Okay.  Let's not

         10        get hung up on that, and let's move on to No. 10

         11        before we come back to No. 9.

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman, this

         13        has the catchy title of miscellaneous and technical.

         14        These proposals, if you look through them, I believe

         15        almost all of them were unanimous.  These were put in

         16        here, the thinking of the Style and Drafting Committee

         17        was that none of these were major changes in the

         18        Constitution or major changes in policy.  And

         19        consistent with trying to group things that were major

         20        changes, that is perhaps the other nine, that these,

         21        in order to keep under the 75-word rule, we had to

         22        move this out.

         23             Now, this ballot language does describe this

         24        series of proposals.  And so I would be glad to

         25        respond to any questions.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Also, you will

          2        recall, you added to this by your previous vote,

          3        Proposals 4, 25 and 44, the military proposals by

          4        Commissioner Langley.

          5             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, we had

          6        already done that.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So, we are now

          8        preparing to vote to make Revision 10 consistent with

          9        Proposal 35 which passed 32 to nothing relating to

         10        ethics and government.  Proposal 37 by Commissioner

         11        Freidin passed 25 to 2, adopting language that's not

         12        gender specific.  Committee Substitute for Proposal

         13        133 by the Committee on Finance and Tax and

         14        Commissioner Scott, 31 to nothing, providing

         15        guidelines for the public review period for the

         16        General Appropriations Act.

         17             Proposal 179 by Commissioner Thompson, providing

         18        guidelines for legislative consideration of veto

         19        messages, provides in calculation a 72-hour period

         20        review period for general appropriation bills, and it

         21        was passed 32 to nothing.

         22             And one repealing Section 6 relating to the

         23        Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, and that was

         24        adopted 30 to 1.  Proposal 152 by Commissioner

         25        Barkdull, amending the deadline for the CRC in filing


          1        a proposed revision, that was 29 to nothing.  The

          2        other three were under the Judicial Revision 3, and

          3        that was 4 by Langley, Commissioner Langley,

          4        clarifying the authority of the Department of military

          5        Affairs to court-martial and to impose sentences.  And

          6        25 by Commissioner Langley providing for military

          7        court-martial to be conducted by military judges with

          8        direct appeal to the District Court of Appeal.

          9             Proposal 44 by Commissioner Langley, allowing the

         10        State Supreme Court to give question of military law

         11        to Federal Court.  The first one was 26 to zero, the

         12        second one, 28 to 1, and the last one was 26 to

         13        nothing.

         14             Okay.  Is everybody ready to vote on those as a

         15        grouping, together with the ballot language, which

         16        will probably come back to us?  Commissioner Barkdull.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I need to ask

         18        Commissioner Mills a question, please.  I'm not trying

         19        to be overly technical, but do you think that we could

         20        get some better words than miscellaneous technical as

         21        a catch-all for this thing?

         22             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, we would be glad to

         23        accept --

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  How about adjustments and

         25        corrections?  I mean --


          1             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  We are perfectly willing to

          2        accept adjustments and corrections.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We'll defer it for

          4        consideration to Style and Drafting, which they are

          5        going to meet right after we close.

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, I would

          7        recommend him to go ahead and offer that as an

          8        amendment if he wants to.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We have three amendments on

         10        the table.

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  On this one?

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Uh-huh (Indicating

         13        affirmatively.)  Would you read --

         14             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, while we are

         15        considering those, you could offer that as an

         16        amendment to the title.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  She read the first one.  We

         18        didn't vote on it, did we?  Read it again, read the

         19        first one.

         20             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

         21        Drafting, on Page 7, Line 21, after the word, "the"

         22        insert "governors."

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in favor of

         24        the amendment, say aye.  Opposed?

         25             (Verbal vote taken.)


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted.

          2        Read the next one.

          3             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

          4        Drafting, on Page 10, Line 10, delete the word

          5        respective.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in favor, say

          7        aye.

          8             (Verbal vote taken.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's adopted.  No. 3.

         10             READING CLERK:  By Commissioners Freidin, Mathis,

         11        and Evans-Jones, on Page 16, Lines 19 and 23, and on

         12        Page 17, Lines 24 and 26, delete the word chairperson

         13        and insert chair.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in favor, say

         15        aye.  Opposed?

         16             (Verbal vote taken.)

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You have adopted the

         18        amendments.  Now, are we ready to vote now on the

         19        grouping with the ballot language that we have got?

         20             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  If Commissioner Barkdull --

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You have got another

         22        amendment?

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, I

         24        suppose that we could come back.  He could offer that

         25        in Style and Drafting and we could --


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's do that and let's go

          2        ahead and vote on this.  Unlock the machine and vote

          3        on No. 10.

          4             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Unlock the machine and

          6        announce the vote.

          7             READING CLERK:  Thirty-five yeas, zero nays,

          8        Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you have

         10        grouped these together.  Now, we have got No. 9, we

         11        have got to go back to No. 9 and there is an amendment

         12        on the desk.

         13             We are back on Revision No. 9 that we temporarily

         14        passed.  And there is an amendment on the desk which

         15        you will please read.

         16             READING CLERK:  Ballot language for Revision 9

         17        states that females and males alike are equal before

         18        the law and that no person shall be deprived of any

         19        right because of national origin, changes physical

         20        handicap to physical disability as persons are being

         21        protected from being denied from any right.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everybody understand the

         23        amendment?  Who offered the amendment, Style and

         24        Drafting?  Commissioner Freidin, do you want to

         25        explain your amendment?


          1             COMMISSIONER FREIDEN:  There's no substantive

          2        change, I think it simply puts it in more readable,

          3        more understandable language.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We are on the

          5        amendment.  Commissioner Langley, on the amendment.

          6             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  This really is not in

          7        jestgist, but do we have any obligation to warn the

          8        public of the possible implications of what we are

          9        putting before them?  I'm serious about that.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Certainly we'll issue all

         11        kinds of --

         12             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I mean, should we put

         13        language in there, May legitimize homosexual

         14        marriages, should we put that in there as part of the

         15        title?

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, you are a Commissioner,

         17        maybe you ought to tell us.  I'm not going to answer

         18        your question.

         19             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I am serious, we have no

         20        obligation to warn people of our interpretation of

         21        these?

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chariman, in serious

         24        response to that, the obligation and title of ballot

         25        language is to describe the contents.  And the case


          1        law around it says that you don't have to describe

          2        every possible implication.

          3             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  That was a serious

          4        question.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Smith on the

          6        amendment.

          7             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you.  And in response

          8        to Commissioner Langley, I hope that he notices from

          9        the Journal of 1997-'98 Constitution Revision

         10        Commission, dated Tuesday, March 17th, 1998, on

         11        Page 213, it states, As a sponsor of that proposal,

         12        Proposal 11, I state, unequivocally, that in offering

         13        this proposal, I do not intend and have never intended

         14        for it to form the basis for a right to same sex

         15        marriage in this state.  Furthermore, I am satisfied

         16        that adoption of this proposal by the voters would not

         17        confer such rights.

         18             So, I don't think what you said was in jest, and

         19        I just wanted you to know that the intent of the

         20        proponent of the proposal has been put in writing in

         21        posterity for the public.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  That answers your

         23        question.  Now, we'll vote on the amendment.

         24        Commissioner Morsani, on the amendment.

         25             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  I'm concerned in that we


          1        have done so much work, I mean, Style and Drafting has

          2        done so much work on this and then suddenly we are

          3        changing it, I just have a problem with -- I don't

          4        know what the problem is, but --

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Morsani, the

          6        Style and Drafting expert here is going to answer you,

          7        Commissioner Lowndes.

          8             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  There's very little change

          9        from what Style and Drafting has originally done to

         10        what Ellen has done, she has just changed --

         11        Commissioner Freidin has done, she's just changed a

         12        few words.  It says exactly the same thing as it said

         13        before.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Just offered it as cleaner

         15        language, as I understand it.

         16             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Well what happened, once

         17        you separate, we are under the 75-word burden, and

         18        once you separate the religious freedom from the other

         19        parts of that, you have more words, and she added a

         20        few more words, but she has not changed the meaning or

         21        substance of what Style and Drafting originally agreed

         22        to.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  In other words, you favor the

         24        amendment?

         25             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Yes, sir.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does that answer your

          2        question, Commissioner Morsani?

          3             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  I don't know.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  All in favor of the

          5        amendment, say aye.  Opposed?

          6             (Verbal vote taken.)

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted and

          8        now we'll vote on Revision No. 9, which no longer

          9        includes Proposal 187, and we are also voting on

         10        whatever ballot language is there, which can be

         11        amended by Style and Drafting when we come back.  All

         12        right.  Is everybody ready to vote?  Unlock the

         13        machine and let's vote.

         14             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Zack, you

         16        haven't voted.  Commissioner Rundle.  All right, let's

         17        vote.  There we go.  Lock the machine and announce the

         18        vote.

         19             READING CLERK:  Thirty yeas, 6 nays,

         20        Mr. Chairman.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you have

         22        adopted that grouping.  Commissioner Barkdull, you are

         23        recognized.

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  To make a motion to

         25        reconsider.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Make your motion.

          2             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I would like to move that

          3        we reconsider the vote by which Revision Packet No. 1

          4        failed.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That was an amendment, wasn't

          6        it?

          7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I can't get back to

          8        it until I get it --

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Oh, it didn't pass?

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It didn't pass.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The grouping passed.  The

         12        grouping passed 32 to 3.  What you have to move to do

         13        is the amendment which failed, the amendment to

         14        Committee Substitutes for 36 and 38 -- no, wait a

         15        minute, for 45 is what failed.

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It is my understanding

         17        that the amendment failed.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But that was an amendment to

         19        No. 45.

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It takes a super majority

         21        vote, so anybody is on the prevailing side.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  She tells me that

         23        you are right.  First of all, in order to vote on that

         24        amendment, we have to move to vote to reconsider the

         25        matter, the entire matter that we voted on.  If you


          1        want to reconsider the amendment that was offered by

          2        Commissioner Henderson.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No, by Commissioner

          4        Thompson.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By Commissioner Thompson,

          6        then you need to vote to reconsider, at which time

          7        then the amendment that failed by one vote, I think it

          8        was, will be reconsidered if it's -- if it's -- if the

          9        motion to reconsider is adopted.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I've got to get it back

         11        on the table before I can reach the amendment.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Thompson.

         13             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  My understanding would be

         14        that we have been voting on approving the groupings,

         15        not final action on the proposals, and therefore it's

         16        still available to us for amendment until it comes

         17        back again.  Well, it would be available then.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The problem with that, I

         19        think, would be that since we had this specific

         20        amendment that was offered and it was defeated, that

         21        the time to reconsider it is before Style and Drafting

         22        goes back, because if it is reconsidered and then it

         23        is adopted, the grouping would include that in it.

         24             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Well, Style and Drafting

         25        hasn't gone back yet.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I know that, but I think what

          2        she says is that we need to, if we are going to

          3        reconsider the amendment which failed, we need to do

          4        it now.

          5             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  That's what I want to do.

          6        I believe that's what Commissioner Barkdull is trying

          7        to do.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That's what I'm trying to

          9        do.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  That's correct.  So,

         11        if you vote to reconsider this, then we will vote on

         12        the amendment again which lost by one vote; is that

         13        right?

         14             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yeah, yeah.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand

         16        which amendment that was, Commissioner Thompson's

         17        amendment?  Anybody that doesn't remember that?

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  We are on a motion to

         19        reconsider, Mr. Chairman, I believe that it takes a

         20        majority vote.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.  It takes a

         22        majority vote to reconsider, but it takes 22 votes, if

         23        you vote again, to pass the amendment, otherwise it

         24        fails.  Now, Commissioner Alfonso, did you have a

         25        question or comment, sir?


          1             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Just a comment.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.

          3             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Has anyone ever seen the

          4        movie Groundhog Day?

          5             (Laughter.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, we have a few others

          7        that have done this too, you know.  Anyway, your point

          8        is made.  All right.  We are going to vote on

          9        reconsideration.  It takes a majority vote.  All in

         10        favor of reconsideration, say aye.  Opposed?

         11             (Verbal vote taken.)

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We will vote.  Unlock the

         13        machine and let's vote.  This is on the motion the

         14        reconsider.  It takes a majority vote.

         15             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         17        the vote.

         18             READING CLERK:  Twenty yeas, 14 nays,

         19        Mr. Chairman.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The motion to reconsider is

         21        adopted.  We will now move to reconsider the amendment

         22        by Commissioner Thompson.  Commissioner Thompson, you

         23        are recognized on the matter.

         24             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman

         25        and Members for reconsidering this again.  I have


          1        suffered with many of you as you have had your ideas

          2        reconsidered, and I appreciate you suffering through

          3        this with me.  I do think that it's something that you

          4        ought to submit for your final consideration today

          5        before we go back and try to come out with our final

          6        product.  And the reason is, first of all, let me tell

          7        you, as Commissioner Henderson said this morning, it

          8        is a very legitimate point of view.  He was for it,

          9        and vacillated back and forth and finally decided

         10        that, all things considered, he was not going to be

         11        supportive of it at this point.

         12             But the other point that was brought out this

         13        morning that I think was of paramount interest is the

         14        one that was brought out by Commissioner Sundberg when

         15        he asked a simple question, can't the Legislature do

         16        this, can't the Legislature methodically, in an

         17        organized fashion, hearing from all parties concerned,

         18        take this license money and do what needs to be done

         19        for the people and for the marine life in our state,

         20        rather than, rather than taking $18 million in one

         21        lump sum and putting it into a new bureaucracy that

         22        nobody gets a chance to vote on?

         23             Do you want to leave it over in an agency where

         24        there's answerability to the people, or do you want to

         25        stick it over somewhere where the people are shut out


          1        of the process?  I'll tell you, we want to insulate

          2        the species, we want to insulate our marine life a

          3        little bit from raw politics, but I want to submit to

          4        you that if you do what we are doing here without my

          5        amendment, you are going to be taking the chances of

          6        undoing some other good things that the state of

          7        Florida has been doing for a long time with no real

          8        complaint.

          9             So, I'll submit to you, it has been a good idea,

         10        it was a good idea when Commissioner Henderson

         11        originally liked it, and it is still a good idea.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Freidin.

         13             COMMISSIONER FREIDEN:  I have a question for

         14        Commissioner Thompson.  Could you explain for us what

         15        we have the chance of undoing?

         16             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  I think you would take

         17        the chance of undoing research and organized specific

         18        programs that are going on within DEP.  Now, if you

         19        know what all of those are, you wouldn't want to vote

         20        for my amendment.  If you don't know what all of those

         21        are, you want to vote for my amendment and let the

         22        Legislature decide very methodically and on an

         23        informed basis what those are and whether they should

         24        stay within DEP or whether or not they are transferred

         25        to this new constitutional agency.


          1             I think that everybody agrees, generally, that we

          2        want to transfer the things that I spoke about this

          3        morning, we want to transfer the size limits, the bag

          4        limits, and we want to transfer the seasons and that

          5        sort of thing.  I think the Legislature will follow

          6        very quickly in trying to transfer certain authority

          7        over them.  And that will mean moving some programs.

          8             I think that the Marine Patrol will probably be

          9        one of the first ones.  And I think that's why the

         10        sports fishermen of this state want this, and I think

         11        that is a worthy goal.  But there are things beyond

         12        that that you and I are now admitting on this floor,

         13        we don't know what they are.  Let the Legislature in

         14        an educated fashion figure out what they are and do

         15        what they think is right about them.

         16             COMMISSIONER FREIDEN:  May I ask one more

         17        question?  Do the commercial fishermen have a position

         18        on, or would they have a position on this amendment?

         19             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Not that I know of.  I

         20        would have no idea, but I doubt it.  I think their

         21        position is that they are against this whole matter, I

         22        think that they are against this whole proposal.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso was up,

         24        and then you are up next, Commissioner Smith.

         25             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Go ahead.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso yields

          2        to Commissioner Smith.

          3             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I have a question.  During

          4        the course of debate on this issue, the thing that

          5        concerned me was discussion about the federal law, I

          6        think it's Senator Breaux, and the fact that in some

          7        ways mandates the position that is taken by --

          8        recommended by the committee.  And I think either

          9        Commissioner Alfonso or maybe Commissioner Henderson,

         10        didn't you bring that up?  Would you explain that for

         11        those of us who don't know very much about this

         12        conservation issue?

         13             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Thank you, I will try

         14        again.  As Commissioner Thompson said, when we spoke

         15        about this last time, I guess a week, not the last

         16        time or the time before that, but maybe a week ago,

         17        that I had never heard of Wallop-Breaux until this

         18        issue came up, Wallop-Breaux Federal Aquatic Resources

         19        Trust Fund Act.

         20             At the time that we tried to craft the language

         21        that now Commissioner Thompson is proffering to you,

         22        we thought we were trying to fix this problem with

         23        Wallop-Breaux.  I'm, at this point, convinced that you

         24        cannot fix that problem, you cannot fix that problem

         25        because what Wallop-Breaux says, very simply, is that


          1        license fees paid by fishermen need to go to the Fish

          2        and Game Department of the particular state.

          3             Right now it is split because we have two Fish

          4        and Game Departments, we have a freshwater fish

          5        department and a saltwater fish department.  The

          6        saltwater, in case, now is DEP.

          7             The proposal which is before you unifies the two,

          8        it will create a new agency and pull it together.  So

          9        the Wallop-Breaux funds will go to the new agency, and

         10        so that's -- you can't fix that.  The question is, if

         11        you do not require, prohibit some diversion, which is

         12        what's now before us, and the issue is could you lose

         13        that money.

         14             That was the issue raised by the Game Commission

         15        and by other lawyers that have looked at this, and

         16        that's why I don't want -- that's why, to make it very

         17        clear, since it looks like -- since it's been

         18        suggested that I've vacillated on the issue, to make

         19        it very clear that I oppose the amendment today and

         20        support the proposal in its present form, because I do

         21        think, and I think the people who support this

         22        proposal clearly believe that their saltwater fishing

         23        license fees should go to the new agency.

         24             Now, clearly, the new agency, through the

         25        Legislature, will be able to define the terms of the


          1        license, can contract back with DEP, continue the good

          2        work of the research institute, continue to decide

          3        what to do about the marine patrol.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          5        Langley, I think that we can recognize that his

          6        vacillation that's been ongoing has just ended.

          7             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I was going to suggest to

          8        maybe wait 15 minutes and he'll be back on our side.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, you know, if you want

         10        to take a recess, we'll try.

         11             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Seriously, I'm not known

         12        to be a tree hugger and I haven't even been hugged by

         13        many of the tree huggers, but that isn't what this is

         14        about.  What this is about, and this problem, bringing

         15        it up with Federal funding, if the Legislature, put

         16        this in the Legislature, and if that is indeed the

         17        case, the Legislature can give all of this money to

         18        the Commission, but if you don't do this, they cannot.

         19             And the problem is, you know, the part of this --

         20        the first part of the proposition puts an added burden

         21        on the State to conserve its natural resources.  And

         22        it is an added burden, and it makes it very clear.

         23        But now we are saying, But you are not going to get

         24        any of the funding from the improved natural resources

         25        that you are conserving, that's all going to this


          1        independent commission.  That's not right, you put the

          2        burden on the State and the awards on the commission.

          3             This way, the State, under the amendment, the

          4        State can do that which it has to do if it's in

          5        jeopardy of losing the money, it can give it all, and

          6        if not, it can appropriate it out as it sees fit.  And

          7        that's what the Legislature is there for.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any further discussion on the

          9        amendment?  The amendment is what we are on.

         10        Commissioner Alfonso, you have the floor.

         11             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Okay.  Again, I still do

         12        not understand how the Legislature is going to give up

         13        this money once they get it.  I don't understand that.

         14        Did they ever pass a net law; did they ever protect a

         15        resource when they had a chance?  If they get the

         16        money, are they going to give it up?  You are really

         17        looking at jeopardizing this commission, taking away

         18        the revenue that the people think they are giving this

         19        commission.

         20             If this commission is indeed to be trusted with

         21        this, why can't they contract out with FDEP, just like

         22        we have been saying?  Why did this come up at the end?

         23        Why are all of these mysterious programs that we have

         24        not learned about while we have been studying this for

         25        the last eight months all of a sudden coming up?  I


          1        just don't understand.  And I think we really would be

          2        gutting this unification proposal to take away the

          3        saltwater license fees.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  To close, Commissioner

          5        Thompson.

          6             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Thank you.  And thank you

          7        again, Commissioners, for giving us the opportunity to

          8        reconsider this.  Commissioner Smith, if you are

          9        concerned about that, then that -- the Wallop-Breaux

         10        Act, based on what you and I are looking at, and I

         11        noticed that you are looking at the same thing I am,

         12        if you will read that and think about what's been

         13        going on now, then maybe the State is already in

         14        violation.

         15             I suspect that it isn't, I suspect what happens

         16        in this is, as in health care and many other things,

         17        when the Federal government sends money, they always

         18        have some strings, and if the State isn't in perfect

         19        compliance, let me tell you just exactly how that

         20        works, you get your little delegation from the

         21        Legislature and the Governor's office and they go to

         22        Washington, and they get their delegation for Florida,

         23        and they talk it out and they come back and they

         24        change the law and they get the money and they figure

         25        it out.


          1             So, that's exactly what is going to happen if we

          2        adopt my amendment, it's all going to work out.  But

          3        if you don't adopt my amendment, you are going to have

          4        a newly created commission that is appointed, not

          5        elected, not answerable to anybody that's going to be

          6        administering funds that they never dreamed that they

          7        would instead of having the well thought out and

          8        balanced programs that our Legislature has been

          9        providing for.

         10             I think we'll all get there, exactly where we

         11        want to go, I think we are all basically for this

         12        proposal, but I think it's better with this amendment.

         13        Thank you for your consideration.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Let's vote.

         15        Unlock the machine and let's vote on the amendment by

         16        Commissioner Thompson.

         17             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Somebody hasn't voted.

         19        Somebody besides the Chair.  Commissioner Smith.

         20        Commissioner Smith.

         21             (Inaudible.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  What if I don't vote,

         23        Commissioner Langley, is that all right?  This isn't

         24        final, is it, this is on amendment, right?  Then I

         25        won't vote.  Lock the machine and announce the vote.


          1             READING CLERK:  Twenty-two yeas, 13 nays,

          2        Mr. Chairman.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you adopted the

          4        amendment.  All right.  Now, we are back on the

          5        revision; is that correct, Commissioner Barkdull?

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir, as amended.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  As amended, which we passed.

          8        We need to do it again.  All right.  Unlock the

          9        machine and vote on the revision.  This includes

         10        everything that's in this revision this time, so we

         11        have gotten that out of the way.  This is on the

         12        revision itself.  On the revision.  The grouping, the

         13        grouping, then we are going to have a break here and

         14        we are going to get back.  A couple of people haven't

         15        voted.  All right.  Let's vote.  Everybody vote.

         16        Somebody is missing out here.

         17             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         19        the vote.

         20             READING CLERK:  Thirty yeas, 4 nays,

         21        Mr. Chairman.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, the grouping is

         23        adopted.  Now, here's what we are going to do, just a

         24        moment, everybody listen here, listen up, we are going

         25        to take a 30-minute recess.  The Style and Drafting


          1        Committee is going to meet in Room H here in the

          2        Senate Office Building, Room H in the Senate Office

          3        Building Style and Drafting will meet at.

          4             At 3:30 we will be back here to begin voting on

          5        the final voting.  Does everybody understand?  It is

          6        on the fourth floor, H is on the fourth floor in the

          7        Senate Office Building.  Go around there and walk back

          8        across the way to the Senate Office Building.

          9        Commissioner Lowndes.

         10             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I would just like to hear

         11        from the Chair exactly what we are going to vote on

         12        when we come back so that everybody will know.  I

         13        think we need to know that before we go to Style and

         14        Drafting.  When we come back, are we going to vote on

         15        the 12 groups, are we going to vote on the individual

         16        proposals, what are we going to vote on?

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are going to vote on the

         18        12 groups, final vote.  However, as I understand it,

         19        correct me if I'm wrong, Commissioner Barkdull, at

         20        that time, if somebody wants to move one of them out,

         21        either a group or a proposal, they can do so.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir, by 22 votes.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By 22 votes, right?

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  When that's done


          1        then we vote on each revision, and if there's only one

          2        in it, that will be a vote on it.  If there's more

          3        than one in it, it's on a vote on all of them.  It

          4        could be on the ballot with the ballot language as is

          5        going to be furnished by Style and Drafting.

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Right.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So, this will be a final vote

          8        on the groupings.  Everything on there now has gotten

          9        22 votes or it wouldn't be there at a prior meeting.

         10        And then we'll vote, if someone moves to take one out,

         11        we'll vote on that separately, and then if it stays in

         12        it will be in, and then we'll vote on the revision.

         13        If it is a single item and we haven't combined it with

         14        anything, it'll be voted on just like the other

         15        groups.  Commissioner Evans, you have a question.

         16             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  These revisions have been

         17        numbered 1 through 10.  We have not voted on those

         18        numbers, does that mean where they appear on the

         19        ballot, like No. 1 is first and No. 10 is last, or

         20        whatever the last one number is, and we vote on those

         21        numbers?

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

         23             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's my understanding

         24        from the Chairman of the Style and Drafting Committee

         25        that that's not the recommended order on the ballot.


          1        I'm subject to correction by the Chairman, but that's

          2        my understanding.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's my understanding, that

          4        they will then make a recommendation; is that right?

          5        Commissioner Mills, after we come back and we get all

          6        of the revisions that we are going to have, we have

          7        gotten 22 votes on what's on there, then Style and

          8        Drafting is going to make a proposal as to where they

          9        go on the ballot, or are we going to delegate that to

         10        Style and Drafting?

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, it was my -- I

         12        don't know if that's been specifically delegated.  If

         13        it hadn't, then I suppose --

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It has not.

         15             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  If it has not, then after we

         16        vote on all of those, 10 to 12, then we can meet

         17        again.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, why don't you feel that

         19        out while you are in this meeting so it won't take

         20        long.

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  We can do that.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Room H in the Senate

         23        Office Building, and we'll be back here at 3:30.  We

         24        stand in recess until 3:30.

         25             (Recess taken.)


          1             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

          2        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

          3        commissioners indicate your presence.

          4             (Pause.)

          5             Quorum call.  Quorum call.  All commissioners

          6        indicate your presence.  All commissioners indicate

          7        your presence.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Madam Secretary, let's see if

          9        we can't get them in here.

         10             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum call.  Quorum call.

         11        All commissioners indicate your presence.  All

         12        commissioners indicate your presence.  Quorum call.

         13        Quorum call.  All commissioners indicate your

         14        presence.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're missing six

         16        members that were here.  Commissioner Thompson is

         17        here, he's not signed in.  He is now.  Okay.  He tells

         18        me we have a few minutes.  They are putting it in

         19        form.  Commissioner Mathis hasn't signed back in.  And

         20        Commissioner Brochin, here he is.

         21             (Pause.)

         22             What we're waiting on is the staff to give us the

         23        final print so everybody will have it.

         24             (Pause.)

         25             All right.  Let's come to order.  All right.


          1        While we're getting these ready to pass out, let me

          2        have your attention.  What we're going to do is we're

          3        going to take these up revision by revision.  We're

          4        going to deal with them in the order that we have.

          5        And we're going to vote on each revision in order.  If

          6        you want to take out one of the provisions for a

          7        specific vote, you have to move to do that, is that

          8        right, Commissioner Barkdull?  Maybe you can explain

          9        it and then I'll make sure it's right.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's my understanding if

         11        they want to move one, they make the proper motion and

         12        then it will take 22 votes to do it.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But if we vote on the

         14        revision without anybody making any motions if it gets

         15        22 votes, that's the end of that particular revision;

         16        is that right?

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.  That should

         18        constitute the final vote of that revision if there

         19        are no changes in it.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And there can be no future

         21        vote of any kind; is that right?

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That's my understanding

         23        of what we recommended this morning.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So there won't be any

         25        carryover motions to reconsider or any of those


          1        things; is that right?  Is that everybody's

          2        understanding?  Commissioner Scott.

          3             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  And if it fails?

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's dead.

          5             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  But -- do you have a but to

          6        that?

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, if it's a group it

          8        doesn't fail.  If the group doesn't pass then they

          9        break into single issues, that's the rule.  On the

         10        other hand, what I meant to say was, that an

         11        individual proposal as opposed to a revision, if it's

         12        singled out and voted on by virtue of a, I guess it

         13        would be a motion to amend the group, would it not?

         14             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Then that would be an

         16        entirely different matter.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  If it's a motion to pull

         18        it out and it passes, it would be freestanding unless

         19        it was coupled with something else.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  How do they vote on an

         21        individual proposal to vote against it?

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  They move to strike it.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Move to strike it.  Okay.

         24        That was my understanding, you had to make a motion.

         25        And the motion to strike does what?


          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Requires 22 votes to

          2        strike it.  It's my understanding it would take 22

          3        votes to strike it.  That doesn't pass it.  I mean,

          4        still, even if you didn't strike it, it would still

          5        take 22 affirmative votes to pass it.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So what would happen is, if

          7        you moved it out of the revision that we were

          8        considering, like Revision 1, take an example, it's

          9        got four proposals and you wanted to take a separate

         10        vote on one of them, say the one, the last one, 1O2,

         11        how would you do that?

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  You could do it in

         13        several different ways.  If you want to try to kill

         14        it, you could move to strike the whole proposal.  If

         15        you want to pull it out separately, you could move to

         16        pull it out of the package and have it stand

         17        freestanding.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And then if it's

         19        freestanding, then you have to vote on it and get 22

         20        votes.

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Correct.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So if you wanted to make it

         23        have an affirmative duty on the person that wanted to

         24        pass it, you would pull it out and make it

         25        freestanding; is that right?


          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I know what the vote

          2        would be.  I don't know what the motive of a person

          3        would be.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Well, let's try

          5        it.  We may not get any of those because one of the

          6        more controversial ones is already freestanding, most

          7        of them.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I think Commissioner

          9        Langley has got a point.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Langley.

         11             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         12        It's my understanding if a package fails that each

         13        component would have to pass, not that they would

         14        automatically be passed and go on.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's right.

         16             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Well, that's not what you

         17        said earlier.  You said they'd all go forward.  They

         18        don't unless they each get 22 votes.  And there was

         19        one other caveat.  If you remember, Commissioner

         20        Rundle has told some of us that in the event the

         21        Legislature speaks to the gun problem that we might

         22        want to withdraw one of our amendments.  So I assume

         23        at any time between now and May 5th we could actually

         24        come in and withdraw one.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Only with unanimous consent.


          1             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Unanimous consent?

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Am I right, Commissioner

          3        Barkdull?  If we pass a proposal and somebody comes

          4        along on our May meeting, in order to pull it out,

          5        requires -- says, "I want to pull it out," requires

          6        unanimous consent?

          7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's a change in the

          8        rules.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It would be a two-thirds'

         10        vote or unanimous consent.  Okay.  Two-thirds.

         11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Two-thirds.  I may have

         12        misunderstood an inquiry from Commissioner Langley.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Here's what he said.  If you

         14        defeat Revision 1 and each one of these becomes

         15        freestanding, and nobody makes a motion to put, say,

         16        three of them in a revision and that passed, if that's

         17        true, then we would vote on that revision; is that

         18        right?

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, if we vote

         20        negatively on Revision 1 and they all become

         21        freestanding then it seems to me they would all be

         22        subject to an affirmative vote of 22 votes.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's true.  But at the same

         24        time, somebody could make a motion to put three of

         25        them and leave one of them out, put three of them into


          1        a revision, same thing.  And if that got 22 votes then

          2        that would be the end of that one.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That would be a new

          4        grouping.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Then we would vote on the

          6        single one that was left and it would require 22

          7        votes.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's what you meant, wasn't

         10        it, Commissioner Langley?

         11             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  (Nods affirmatively.)

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Commissioner Connor.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I'm not sure this is the

         14        same thing, just for clarification and as an example,

         15        on 167.  We've had a number of members during the

         16        recess who said, Now, if the Legislature goes through

         17        and closes the gun show loophole, I'm willing to come

         18        back and withdraw 167.  I'd like to know if I can,

         19        Mr. Chairman, what threshold --

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Two-thirds vote.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Two-thirds.  Okay.

         22        Twenty-five votes.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Or unanimous consent.

         24        Commissioner Langley.

         25             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  How do we get there from


          1        here?  Are you going to call us in?

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No.  No, we can do it on the

          3        last day.  We can't do anything on the last day other

          4        than just meet and approve things generally.  It takes

          5        a two-thirds vote to undo anything.

          6             (Off-the-record comment.)

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's right.  There is no

          8        reconsideration.  When we get through here today,

          9        that's the end of the game.  At the end of the day,

         10        we're through voting.  If you lose, you lose.  If you

         11        win, you win.  And if somebody wants to withdraw one

         12        at our last meeting, it takes a two-thirds' vote of

         13        the commission; is that right?  I want to make sure

         14        that's clear in the record that that's the case.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.  And it's my

         16        understanding from the Secretary that's 25 votes.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's right.  It would be 25

         18        votes required to do what you ask.  Now, let's get to

         19        where we can do some of that and where we can finish

         20        today and we'll be on our way.  The first thing to

         21        come up is revision -- Commissioner Evans.

         22             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  Just a question on that.  Is

         23        it two-thirds of the commission whether they're here

         24        or not?

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.  Twenty-five


          1        votes just like it's 22 votes.

          2             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  Okay.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, it's 25 votes.  The Rules

          4        Chairman just told me that so I'm going to stay with

          5        it.  We're not going to rewrite them again.  Look, if

          6        she wants to withdraw it, who in the world is going to

          7        object?  To waive the rules, it's two-thirds of the

          8        members, that's 25 votes.  And that's exactly what we

          9        would be doing.  All right, let's get on with this.

         10             All right.  We go to Revision No. 1 and read the

         11        title of each one of the proposals that are in that

         12        provision.  Commissioner Barkdull.

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Inquiry of the Chair and

         14        really of the Style and Drafting Committee.  Was there

         15        anything to be handed out or distributed to the

         16        commission after the meeting that they just had?

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's what we've been

         18        waiting on.

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I don't see it on my

         20        desk, that's the reason why I ask.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, you might want to look.

         22        They told me they passed it out.  I have it right

         23        here.  It's Revision No. 1.  Everybody got it?

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Are they going to pass

         25        them out as we come to them?


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Apparently so.

          2             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I've got Revision 1.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Revision No. 1, read the

          4        title of each proposal.

          5             READING CLERK:  Revision 1, Conservation of

          6        Natural Resources and Creation of Fish and Wildlife

          7        Conservation Commission.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now read the next

          9        one.

         10             READING CLERK:  Revision 2, Public Education of

         11        Children.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, no.  There is one in each

         13        one of these.  I wanted it for each one so we'd know

         14        what we're voting on.  I'll read it.  What we're

         15        voting on is Revision No. 1 which includes all of

         16        these proposals.  I wanted her to read this.  The

         17        first one she read is, Providing that it is the policy

         18        of the state to conserve natural resources and scenic

         19        beauty for the health and welfare of its citizens for

         20        future generations; providing for provisions to be

         21        made by law to protect future generations.

         22             The next one is committee constitute for No. 45,

         23        then read that.  Committee substitute for 64 and then

         24        we read that.  Okay.  Otherwise, we can't vote on the

         25        revision.


          1             Commissioner Mills.

          2             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman --

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You're supposed to give us

          4        this in some form where we could work with it.

          5             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, what you

          6        could do is you could vote on this revision as it was

          7        voted on this morning to be combined and one vote up

          8        or down.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  But we need to know

         10        what we're voting on.

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I take it that's what has

         12        been passed out.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No.  All right.  Is

         14        everything in here, Revision 1?  All right.  We're

         15        going to vote on Revision 1 which includes all of

         16        those things that we passed out.  And she read the

         17        title language to Revision 1 which is sufficient to

         18        identify it.  Does everybody understand where we are?

         19        All right.  Is there any debate on Revision 1 under

         20        the rule of three minutes, three minutes?  That's what

         21        we adopted when we started.

         22             Commissioner Henderson.

         23             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  I'll do this in one

         24        minute.  When we've considered and reconsidered

         25        components of this throughout the day and I did not


          1        want us to leave this on sour note.

          2             The conservation community of this state that

          3        strongly supports this proposal is now before you.  It

          4        is of historic dimension.  And what it will do, I

          5        believe, it will have strong, very strong public

          6        support and commend it to you.  And I would thank so

          7        many of you who have worked on various parts of this

          8        to make this the strong proposal that it is.  This one

          9        is a winner.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Any further

         11        debate on Revision No. 1?  Unlock the machine and

         12        let's vote.

         13             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and record

         15        the vote.

         16             READING CLERK:  Thirty-four yeas, two nays,

         17        Mr. Chairman.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you've adopted

         19        Revision 1 to go on the ballot.  Finally, we've done

         20        something.  Now, we'll go to Revision 2.

         21             READING CLERK:  Revision 2, Public Education of

         22        Children.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         24        Mills, do you move Revision 2 as it's been revised?

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.  This


          1        incorporates the amendments from this morning and the

          2        title was revised to conform with that amendment.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Is there any

          4        debate or discussion on amendment -- Revision 2?

          5        Commissioner Langley.

          6             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Commissioners, I feel

          7        convinced that the whole purpose of this is to give an

          8        edge to those suits that have been filed in the past

          9        against the Legislature concerning adequate funding of

         10        the educational system in this state.  I think you're

         11        opening the wallet of the taxpayer to unlimited

         12        expenditures that should be legislative matters.

         13        That, I think, is the intent of it and I think that's

         14        what it does and I don't think that's responsible.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         16             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, I would

         17        just briefly close in saying that education is the

         18        most important issue to the people of this state.

         19        This simply defines the duty of this state to its

         20        children and that our paramount duty is to provide a

         21        public education.  That education should be adequate.

         22        And to be adequate, it has to be safe, secure.  I

         23        heard the other day about kids that need metal

         24        detectors in the third grade and I suspect that

         25        wouldn't be sufficient.  And it's my belief that the


          1        result of this would be -- the Legislature and all

          2        public officials being more responsible about public

          3        education.  I just move it.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any further debate or

          5        discussion?  If not, unlock the machine and we'll

          6        vote.  This is Revision 2 on education.

          7             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

          9        the vote.

         10             READING CLERK:  Twenty-eight yeas, eight nays,

         11        Mr. Chairman.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Move to Revision 3.

         13             READING CLERK:  Revision 3, Selection of Judges

         14        and Funding of State Courts.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Have we passed

         16        that out?  It's being passed out.  Now, is there

         17        any -- Commissioner Mills, do you want to present this

         18        one?  No. 3 dealing with three things, the --

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this includes

         20        the proposal we discussed this morning which is the

         21        selection process optional through local elections.

         22        The funding of Article V, which I think the salient

         23        point is, it shifts some of the funding

         24        responsibilities to the state thereby decreasing the

         25        responsibilities and obligation of local property


          1        taxpayers.  And the third issue simply deals with the

          2        Judicial Qualifications Commission which I believe is,

          3        basically, a technical amendment.

          4             So overall, this deals with the major issues of

          5        selection of judges through a local option election

          6        process and the funding of the judicial system.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Is there any

          8        further discussion on No. 3 which has been explained

          9        by the chairman of Style and Drafting?  If not, open

         10        the machine and we'll vote.

         11             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         13        the vote.

         14             READING CLERK:  Thirty-one yeas, five nays,

         15        Mr. Chairman.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you've adopted

         17        Revision 3.  All right.  Revision 4.

         18             READING CLERK:  Revision 4, Restructuring the

         19        state Cabinet.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this is the

         22        single proposal for the -- streamlining the state

         23        Cabinet which would then include the elected cabinet

         24        including the Attorney General, the Agriculture

         25        Commissioner, and the chief financial officer.  It


          1        also includes the proposal on creating an education

          2        commission which would appoint the education

          3        commissioner.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Is there any

          5        further discussion on this?  If not, get ready to

          6        vote.  Unlock the machine and let's vote.  (Pause.)

          7        Somebody hasn't voted.  Lock the machine and announce

          8        the vote.

          9             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         10             READING CLERK:  Twenty-five yeas, 11 nays,

         11        Mr. Chairman.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you've adopted

         13        it.  No. 5 hasn't been completely drafted.  We'll go

         14        to No. 6 and come back to No. 5.

         15             READING CLERK:  Revision 6, Ballot Access, Public

         16        Campaign Financing, and Election Process Revisions.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  This is the

         18        elections package.  Commissioner Mills.

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, these are

         20        packaged -- several of these made it easier for voters

         21        to have the ability to vote in primary elections, made

         22        it easier for minority parties to have access to the

         23        ballot.  There is the procedural change that permits

         24        candidates for governor to run primary elections

         25        without lieutenant governor and the public campaign


          1        financing issue.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Any debate?

          3        Commissioner Langley.

          4             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  I'm playing noseguard

          5        again, but we have another chance here to separate out

          6        some of these issues and possibly save some of these

          7        things that really need to be done.  If we defeat this

          8        whole package, we can come back and either pass them

          9        individually or repackage them.  But I'm telling you,

         10        the crossover primary and the nonpartisan school

         11        boards are going to kill this amendment and the good

         12        things with it.

         13             But, you know, if that's what you want to do,

         14        maybe that's good logic too.  But I'd urge you not to

         15        pass it as it is and come back and take them up

         16        individually, possibly repackage those truly

         17        noncontroversial ones and then let the controversial

         18        ones fly on their own.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anybody else want to be heard

         20        on this?  Commissioner Connor.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Is it appropriate to make a

         22        motion to segment at this point or not, Mr. Chairman?

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You can make whatever motion

         24        you desire to make.

         25             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I'd like to move to segment


          1        out the committee substitute for Proposal 79, ballot

          2        access.  And my rationale, very simply, is I don't

          3        think there is any proposal that has enjoyed a broader

          4        base of support for which historically we've seen a

          5        greater injustice and I think we would do well to

          6        segment that out and give a greater ballot access and

          7        the opportunity to increase voter participation in

          8        this state and I encourage you to pull that out.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There is a motion

         10        which would add another revision, I guess ultimately,

         11        correct?

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, his motion is

         13        to amend out a proposal to be voted on separately.

         14        And I would understand that would take 22 votes.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It takes 22 votes to move

         16        this motion.  Any further discussion on the motion?

         17        If you want to leave it as it is, you vote no on this

         18        motion to take it out.  If you want to move it out you

         19        vote yes.

         20             All right.  Unlock the machine and let's vote on

         21        the motion.

         22             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         24        the vote.

         25             READING CLERK:  Fifteen yeas, 20 nays,


          1        Mr. Chairman.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Amendment fails.  We now go

          3        to Revision No. 6 which includes those items that have

          4        been discussed.

          5             (Off-the-record comment.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I know that, that's what I'm

          7        talking about.  It's Revision 6, excuse me.  We're

          8        going right back to where we were.  We're going to

          9        vote on Revision 6.  Unlock the machine and let's vote

         10        to put the Revision 6 on the ballot.

         11             Everybody hasn't voted.  Two people haven't

         12        voted, three.  Who hasn't voted?  There we go.  All

         13        right.  Lock the machine and announce the vote.

         14             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         15             READING CLERK:  Twenty-four yeas, 12 nays,

         16        Mr. Chairman.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you've placed

         18        Revision 6 on the ballot.  All right.  We now have for

         19        your consideration No. 5A which is just the

         20        Reapportionment Commission.

         21             READING CLERK:  Revision 5A, Creates Appointed

         22        Reapportionment and Redistricting Commission to

         23        Establish Voting Districts.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         25        Scott.  All right.  You were up first, go ahead.


          1             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  It's her proposal.

          2             Commissioners, I'm not going to go back through

          3        all the things about having people with the chance to

          4        have a seat at the table about accountability and

          5        about the communities of interest and the familiarity

          6        of the Legislature with it.  Everybody has heard that

          7        and some of you think this is a good idea and some

          8        think that it isn't.  Those that think it's a good

          9        idea think of it as a nonpolitical sort of independent

         10        way to do something.

         11             And what I would like to say to you, and the

         12        first point is, this is not the case.  If you could

         13        see what's happened, there's going to be eight

         14        Republicans and eight Democrats.  This is not

         15        independent like by a court, for example.  And what

         16        are they going to do?  Are they are going to be --

         17        they're going to be based on the minority party,

         18        whichever party, is going to say, We've got to have

         19        eight that's going to stand up because we get a

         20        50 percent shot.  And the other parties say, We've got

         21        to guard against that.  That's the first point.

         22             The other point that I would like to reemphasize

         23        for you, I have not been articulate on this, is the

         24        minority districts.  This proposal, by its language,

         25        specifically says that minority districts' language


          1        and racial groups will not be diluted and then it

          2        says, Except to meet this requirement, the commission

          3        shall consider compact territory, divisions of

          4        communities to be avoided and counties are not to be

          5        divided and the numbers of municipalities.

          6             Under those circumstances, this is exactly, not

          7        just what you do, and that gets judged by the courts

          8        in a legislative reapportionment.  And which, by the

          9        way, they defer to the Legislature and have

         10        consistently in these cases.  That sets out the

         11        minority district as a factor that could not be

         12        compromised.  And under those circumstances, we would

         13        not have won the Hardwik (phonetic) case.  It will put

         14        us in the category of North Carolina and Texas and

         15        other states that have been thrown out.  So I would

         16        urge you not to adopt this proposal.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         18        Evans-Jones.

         19             COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES:  Go ahead.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Wetherington

         21        first.

         22             COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON:  I didn't want to

         23        respond to the constitutional point.  I did today

         24        speak with Professor William Van Alstyne at Duke

         25        University when Commissioner Scott raised the issue of


          1        the constitutional matter.  As you know, Professor Van

          2        Alstyne is one of the leading constitutional scholars

          3        in America.

          4             In his view, although he did not have the time to

          5        study, he's quite familiar with the cases in this

          6        field, was that this does not offend the cases out

          7        there with respect to the Constitution.  Particularly

          8        with the construction which I think is proper and that

          9        is that you cannot intentionally design districts to

         10        dilute the voting power, racial or language

         11        minorities.

         12             I don't think that if anybody wants to vote

         13        against it, for other reasons, you may do so.  But I

         14        don't think that that is a legitimate concern with

         15        respect to this.  I think it's constitutional and I've

         16        checked it out with the person that I think is the

         17        most eminent constitutional scholar in the country.

         18             On the second point, I credit the goodwill and

         19        thoughtful comments of Commissioner Scott and others

         20        and he's got good points.  I think the Legislature is

         21        pretty good in the state of Florida.  But assuming

         22        they are well motivated and good, and I do make that

         23        assumption, I think they also would be well motivated

         24        and good in the people that they try to appoint for

         25        the commission.


          1             They are not going to just appoint people who are

          2        sent in as attack dogs.  I assume they're going to

          3        appoint people that are going to try to do the job in

          4        the important and high-minded way in which the job

          5        should be done, that they would be responsible in

          6        their appointments as they would be in their

          7        decision-making process.

          8             The thing that convinces me, frankly, is the

          9        apparent -- or the appearance of the conflict of

         10        interest that's involved and has been involved in this

         11        area.  And I think that that appearance is

         12        substantially diminished by the existence of the

         13        independent panel.  That, to me, is the strongest

         14        point in its favor although I have great respect, I

         15        cannot discount these arguments that have been made by

         16        Commissioner Scott, they are good points.

         17             On balance, the thing that convinces me is in

         18        this very important field, the need for that removed

         19        additional level of what I think would be the

         20        avoidance of a conflict of interest.  Those whose jobs

         21        might be affected are not going to be the ones that

         22        are going to be directly making the decision.  And

         23        it's for that reason that I think on balance, although

         24        I think it's a -- I think it's an arguable point -- on

         25        balance, I think the proposal is proper and I intent


          1        to support it and I think we should adopt it.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Langley as on

          3        opponent.

          4             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  You know, I don't believe

          5        that you're taking politics out of reapportionment.

          6        You don't think that when the House speaker, be he

          7        Republican or Democrat, picks his delegate that he's

          8        going to have a litmus test for them as to what they

          9        better do on that commission?

         10             You know we just voted for a proposal in No. 6

         11        that says we're going to make it easier for minority

         12        parties to get on the ballot.  We're going to allow

         13        nonpartisan school board elections and we're going to

         14        allow crossovers in primaries.  That's all going in

         15        one direction and now you want to say, We're going to

         16        chisel them into the stone of the state Constitution

         17        that the Democrats and Republicans will reapportion

         18        this state for the next 20 years.  That's totally

         19        inconsistent with what you just did.

         20             I mean, it doesn't make sense.  You know the

         21        difference?  Now the Speaker of the House and the

         22        President of the Senate and the minority leader in

         23        each House can make these appointments, can make these

         24        people pass their litmus test and not answer to

         25        anybody.  Currently, they have to go home and answer.


          1             In our county, one of our representatives divided

          2        our county into seven legislative districts and he's

          3        paying the price for it because he shouldn't have done

          4        that to our county.  But if this were some

          5        commissioner, as we are, we won't have to answer to

          6        anybody when we go home and neither would this

          7        commission.  You're taking away the responsibility and

          8        the accountability of the people who are given this

          9        very important authority.  And let's leave it to our

         10        elected representatives and throw them out if you

         11        don't like them.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Ford-Coates.

         13             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Commissioners, I would

         14        suggest to you that just the opposite is true of what

         15        Commissioner Langley just said.  If there are problems

         16        with people feeling political pressure who are

         17        elected, then I think that too often they give into

         18        that political pressure.  But I have seen time and

         19        time again in this appointed commission instances of

         20        people standing up regardless of political pressure

         21        and voting the way that they felt was right.

         22             I have never been prouder of this commission than

         23        I was as I read the newspaper articles this last week

         24        about people who, no matter what they were told, voted

         25        what they felt was right.  That's what an appointed


          1        commission can do because there is nothing riding on

          2        it.  There is no speakership riding on how you vote.

          3        There's no people that you have to promise a favor to

          4        when you're in an appointed position in this type of

          5        legislative body making these kinds of decisions in

          6        the sunshine.

          7             I would suggest to you that if this proposal does

          8        not pass today as it did pass last Tuesday we make a

          9        very bad comment about the process we've been involved

         10        in which to this point has been based on one thing

         11        only, what we truly believe to be the right thing to

         12        do.

         13             This is a good proposal, we've heard it argued

         14        time and time again.  It is time that we give it to

         15        the public to vote on and let them decide.  Make no

         16        mistake about it, we are not making the decisions on

         17        which districts will be drawn.  The public will decide

         18        whether or not this is the appropriate way and I would

         19        urge you strongly to vote for this good provision.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We're going to

         21        have one more opponent, Commissioner Mathis.  And one

         22        more to close, proponent, which will be Commissioner

         23        Evans-Jones.  Time has been used.  Commissioner

         24        Mathis.

         25             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  I sincerely believe with


          1        all my heart that this provision is a throwback to

          2        reconstruction.  It takes the power of the electorate

          3        away from the people and concentrates it into a body

          4        that is not answerable to the people for the most

          5        representative branch of government that we have and

          6        that's the legislative branch.  I cannot support this

          7        in all conscience.

          8             The Legislature is the most diverse

          9        representative of the 50 million people that are in

         10        the state of Florida.  It is their duty to decide what

         11        their district lines will be.  Anything less

         12        circumvents the will of the people and postures it in

         13        an elite, small group that don't answer to anyone and

         14        I cannot support that.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Evans-Jones to

         16        close.

         17             COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES:  Commissioners, I want

         18        to plead with you to vote for this very good, good

         19        government bill that we're voting on today, this

         20        proposal.  Certainly it has been, if you'll pardon me,

         21        cussed and discussed by a great many people here in

         22        the state of Florida.  But I think the important thing

         23        is it certainly is not going to dilute any of the

         24        minority strength, it can't.  I think that's a failed

         25        argument.  There is no way that that can happen


          1        because we have the protection of the Minority Voting

          2        Act and those things have to be done first before

          3        anything else can be done.

          4             And someone has said that you don't have anybody

          5        to answer to, this commission.  Well I say for the

          6        first time you would have somebody to answer to and

          7        that's the general public because this has got to be

          8        done in the sunshine.  It currently and always will be

          9        done in the shade if the Legislature continues to do

         10        this and I think that's really important.

         11             People in the state of Florida don't have a high

         12        regard for politicians in general.  And I think this

         13        would really bring back a lot of confidence in us, as

         14        commissioners, to be able to say, We know that the

         15        Legislature can't do that.  And so therefore, we, as a

         16        commission, we're not here to represent the Republican

         17        party and we are not here to represent the Democrat

         18        party.  I remind you, Commissioners, that you are here

         19        to represent the citizens of Florida and this is truly

         20        the key to this proposal.  That's our responsibility.

         21             And I know there has been an enormous amount of

         22        pressure on many of you.  But I have the confidence in

         23        each of you to be able to believe that you're going to

         24        do what you really feel in your heart is the proper

         25        thing.  During a reapportionment session, I can assure


          1        you, that very little gets done in the Legislature.  I

          2        have been there when they have done the

          3        reapportionment and it definitely takes a back seat.

          4             What happens, which is so obvious is, it's

          5        protection of incumbents and it's not really fair.  It

          6        will be fair if you have an equal number of the other

          7        party.  And I don't think that it matters.  We've said

          8        that you may have an independent there, that's fine.

          9        They would vote with the party other than the Speaker

         10        or the President of the Senate.

         11             Commissioners, this is certainly an issue that I

         12        think deserves your full attention.  I thought that we

         13        had gotten the 22 votes and that we were going to be

         14        riding all right today.  And I understand some of the

         15        concern.  And I do think that you have to do what's

         16        right and I think that was the right thing to do, to

         17        have a vote again.  And I just urge you to please,

         18        please, vote yes.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Open the machine

         20        and let's vote.

         21             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everybody voted?  Lock the

         23        machine and announce the voted.

         24             READING CLERK:  Twenty yeas, 15 nays,

         25        Mr. Chairman.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you've defeated

          2        this.  Proposal No. 155, which is -- excuse me,

          3        Revision 5A it is now -- 5B, excuse me.

          4             READING CLERK:  Revision 5B.  Mandate

          5        Single-Member Legislative Districts.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          7        Scott.

          8             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  It does just that, it puts

          9        in the Constitution single-member districts.  Right

         10        now you can have multimember or single-member and

         11        that's what this proposal does.  It passed fairly

         12        overwhelmingly before and it's here again.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Brochin.

         14             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  Question of Commissioner

         15        Scott.  Is this proposal -- can this be put with some

         16        other group or is it your thought that this should

         17        stand alone in light of the fact that reapportionment

         18        has failed?  It seems like a proposal that ought to go

         19        somewhere else rather than be standing by itself.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you want to put it in the

         21        elections' package?  He asked you a question.

         22             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Look, when I filed this, I

         23        had no idea we were going to have such a huge debate

         24        on this whole subject matter.  I mean, I would

         25        withdraw it if the commission at this point doesn't


          1        have any objection.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think that probably --

          3             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  I mean, I'm for

          4        single-member districts.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We have them now.  All right.

          6        He moves to withdraw it.

          7             COMMISSIONER SCOTT:  Well, wait just a minute.  I

          8        don't want to withdraw it.  I'm just going to leave it

          9        for the vote of the commission and then we'll consider

         10        a grouping that could even go -- I don't know what

         11        you're going to do with it.  It could go in technical

         12        easily --

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Ready to vote?  Open the

         14        machine and let's vote.

         15             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         17        the vote.

         18             READING CLERK:  Nineteen yeas, 14 nays,

         19        Mr. Chairman.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It fails.  Now we move to

         21        Revision No. 7.

         22             READING CLERK:  Revision 7, Local and Municipal

         23        Property Tax Exemptions and Citizen Access to Local

         24        Officials.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Who wants to


          1        present this?  Commissioner Barkdull?

          2             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  This is on 5B, Mr.

          3        Chairman, there was a motion --

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, it wasn't.  It was a vote

          5        on the revision.  There was no motion.  You

          6        misunderstood.  There was no motion, it was a vote on

          7        the revision.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Inquiry of the Chair.

          9        Did the proposal pass?

         10             MR. CHAIRMAN:  No, it failed.  I just announced

         11        that.  Commissioner Mills.

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this is the

         13        proposal that was described this morning.  It includes

         14        a series of issues dealing with local government.  One

         15        dealing with access to public officials by citizens

         16        and three dealing with property tax exemptions.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Revision 7.

         18        Anybody want to address Revision 7?  I think we've

         19        debated these a lot.  If not, unlock the machine and

         20        let's vote.

         21             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Has everybody voted?  Lock

         23        the machine and announce the vote.

         24             READING CLERK:  Twenty-seven yeas, seven nays,

         25        Mr. Chairman.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  By your vote you

          2        have adopted Revision 7.  Now we go to Revision 8.

          3             READING CLERK:  Revision 8, Firearms Purchase:

          4        Local Option for Waiting Period and Criminal Records

          5        Check.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Anybody want to

          7        be heard on No. 8?  Commissioner Rundle.

          8             COMMISSIONER RUNDLE:  Commissioners, I want to

          9        thank you in advance for putting what I think is

         10        really one of the most important public safety issues

         11        and lifesaving issues before the people and letting

         12        them vote on this.  As you do this, you should feel

         13        good because I believe when you press this yes button

         14        today you will save a life and I thank you for that.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anybody else want to be heard

         16        on this?  Commissioner Barton.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARTON:  Yes, I'd just like to raise

         18        not only a question but a comment as well.  We

         19        currently have a state law addressing this issue and

         20        in that state law there is a three-day waiting period.

         21        And in that state law the consequences of violating

         22        this issue is a felony.

         23             The proposal that we're looking at, which would

         24        be a local option at the county level, but the

         25        consequences of the crime is a misdemeanor.  And I'm


          1        still confused as to why we're voting to put in a

          2        local option that is less than the state option

          3        currently is.  And I intend to continue to vote

          4        against it until that question is answered.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Connor.

          6             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Ladies and gentlemen, I

          7        urge you to oppose this proposal.  We've received a

          8        letter from the law enforcement group that indicates

          9        that they oppose the proposal.  We've received letters

         10        from gun owner groups that indicate that they oppose

         11        the proposal.  The STOP group who wants to see

         12        offenders do more time, not less time, will oppose the

         13        proposal.  This proposal will engender more opposition

         14        than any other single proposal on the ballot.  I urge

         15        you to vote against it.

         16             The Legislature is now considering and did

         17        consider this afternoon in the Senate Criminal Justice

         18        Committee, a proposal that would close the gun show

         19        loophole and that would make it a felony offense to

         20        violate that.  That proposal has the support of the

         21        National Rifle Association, of the Unified Sportsmen

         22        of America, and has, I would submit to you, a

         23        broad-based support within the Legislature.

         24             We should not go backwards, to the extent that

         25        this proposes a public safety hazard, we should make


          1        the criminals do the time by making sure that the

          2        offense is a felony, not a misdemeanor.  This is a

          3        wash, the proposal does nothing on its face, nothing

          4        on its face to close the gun show loophole.  It'll do

          5        everything to have the effect of torpedoing our

          6        proposals in the coming election, and I urge you to

          7        vote no on the coming proposal.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Smith.

          9             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I

         10        rise as a proponent of the proposal, as I have

         11        throughout the process.  I too want to thank those of

         12        you who support this proposal because I really believe

         13        that we are either going to save lives or save people

         14        from becoming victims.  I didn't join this commission

         15        to be a shrinking violet, afraid of the fact that

         16        something is controversial.  As a matter of fact, the

         17        noncontroversial items are in Section 10 and we are

         18        not in Section 10 right now, so the fact that it may

         19        be controversial, does not give me pause, number one.

         20             And number two, I think that people are

         21        intelligent enough to know that this is a freestanding

         22        proposal and the fact that they may vote against this

         23        proposal will not have any affect on the other

         24        proposals.  With regard to the very important question

         25        that Commissioner Barton asked, with regard to the


          1        laws as they apply now, in terms of the loophole,

          2        there are, right now, no penalty, no criminal penalty

          3        for the loophole.  The reason that there's no penalty

          4        is because it is a loophole, so you can't criminalize

          5        it because it's like a hole in the donut.

          6             So what's happening now is that we are trying to

          7        at least have some type of penalty that can be imposed

          8        by closing the loophole.  Once we close the loophole

          9        and make sure that the gun shows have the same laws as

         10        the gun stores, then you can impose a penalty.  I

         11        would prefer, as I am sure you would, and Commissioner

         12        Connor does, to have felony penalties with regard to

         13        these, but right now there's absolutely no penalty at

         14        all.

         15             Commissioner Connor, we have a ruling from the

         16        Chair that if in fact the gun loophole is closed by

         17        the Legislature, by a vote of 25 of us, we can come

         18        back and say, the loophole has been closed, we can

         19        move forward, we don't need a constitutional

         20        amendment.  But right now the law is pretty clear

         21        that, unless we do this, and everybody in here is

         22        against crime.  Think about this now, in our

         23        community, unless we do this, whether it is the black

         24        Widow or Spino or Kaczynski or some crazy person can

         25        walk into a place and buy a rifle and go out and shoot


          1        people without a three-day check.  We don't want that

          2        to happen.

          3             I am a criminal defense lawyer, but first and

          4        foremost, I am a citizen, I am a father.  And I ask

          5        you and I implore you to vote yes.  We might not, this

          6        might not be a 100 percent closure of the loophole,

          7        but it sure will somewhat cut off the access to guns

          8        by criminals.  Responsible gun owners will always have

          9        access to arms, and I will fight to the death for

         10        that, as I did in Vietnam.  Thank you.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Kogan.

         12             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  I just rise to address the

         13        issue of whether or not this particular proposal will

         14        in fact bring out a group that's going to vote

         15        everything down, to the contrary as I understand it.

         16        And Commissioner Rundle can correct me if I'm wrong,

         17        that the last time that we had a similar proposal to

         18        this on the ballot in this state, 84 percent of the

         19        voters approved it.  Is that correct, Commissioner

         20        Rundle?

         21             Well, I submit to you all, if 84 percent of the

         22        voters approved this the last time, I'm sure you are

         23        not going to have to worry about them coming out to

         24        vote down this proposal and every other proposal.  I

         25        submit to you that it is an argument that's not valid


          1        and should be ignored by all of you.  And I rise as a

          2        proponent for this proposal.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Sundberg.

          4             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Commissioner Connor for a

          5        question.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Connor, yield?

          7             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes.

          8             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Is the, to your

          9        knowledge, is the legislation currently under

         10        consideration by the Legislature similar to the

         11        amendment which you proposed?

         12             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  It's identical.

         13             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Thank you.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         15        Rundle to close.

         16             COMMISSIONER RUNDLE:  Commissioner Sundberg, I'm

         17        glad you asked that question, because I want to make

         18        sure that I'm just as forward with all of you as

         19        possible.  There are two different bills that are

         20        presently pending in the Legislature.  One is in the

         21        House and one is in the Senate.  The one in the Senate

         22        is the one, as I understand it, that Commissioner

         23        Connor presented to you.

         24             You already know that I deeply believe, as many

         25        others do, that that does not solve the problem.  So I


          1        want to be very careful that when we discuss this, and

          2        when we say that we are going to come back maybe on

          3        May 4th and we may, as a commission, if it is the will

          4        of this commission to withdraw it, that will be your

          5        decision, but it must be based on the facts, in my

          6        opinion, that the problem in fact is solved by the

          7        legislation.

          8             So now they have a few months to see if they can

          9        work that language out.  If they do, we can then

         10        consider it on May 4th.  But right now, I'm not real

         11        optimistic about the language that I see going to the

         12        Senate.  Maybe the House bill will prevail, that

         13        remains to be seen.

         14             But that aside, you have already accomplished

         15        something by making them think about it, you have

         16        already accomplished something by making the

         17        Legislature realize that there's a problem.  Now, all

         18        you are doing is taking it to the people and allowing

         19        them the ability to save a life in their community.  I

         20        cannot be more eloquent than my friend Commissioner

         21        Smith, but I can tell you this, that where I live and

         22        the victims that I see and the deaths and the pain

         23        that I see is caused in large part by firearms that

         24        are used by criminals, bad nasty people.

         25             And if this helps close one source off, close one


          1        door for those criminals to have access to firearms,

          2        then we have got to do this.  Please, I urge you,

          3        press this green button, I guarantee you, you will

          4        probably save at least one life.  Thank you.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  She's closed, Commissioner

          6        Langley.

          7             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  For a question,

          8        Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I don't think so.  All right,

         10        open the machine and let's vote.

         11             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

         13        the vote.

         14             READING CLERK:  Twenty-three yeas, 12 nays,

         15        Mr. Chairman.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you have placed

         17        this on the ballot.  We go to Revision No. 9.

         18             READING CLERK:  Revision 9A, basic rights.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And that includes the three

         20        that are remaining and we removed and separated out

         21        Proposal 187; isn't that right, Commissioner Mills?

         22             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, that

         23        includes the male and female alike phrase, the

         24        national origin issue, and physical disability

         25        amendment.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does anybody want

          2        to speak to this?  If not, unlock the machine and

          3        we'll vote.  Excuse me, whoa, back it up.  You want to

          4        speak?  You do not.  All right.  Leave it open,

          5        everybody vote.

          6             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce

          8        the vote.

          9             READING CLERK:  Twenty-seven yeas, 7 nays,

         10        Mr. Chairman.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote, you send this

         12        to the ballot.  The next proposal is Revision 9, I

         13        guess it is.

         14             READING CLERK:  Revision 9(b), Protection of

         15        Religious Freedom.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         17        Connor, this is your proposal.

         18             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Connor, on

         19        Page 1, Line 19, delete the words, state board.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There's an

         21        amendment by Commissioner Connor.  Do you want to

         22        explain the amendment?

         23             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, that proposal, that

         24        amendment is a conforming amendment.  You will recall

         25        at the very beginning, we changed the words, the state


          1        or any political subdivision to a governmental entity,

          2        and inadvertently, we carried that state language

          3        forward and it should just be, governmental entity, so

          4        that is just a conforming amendment, Mr. Chairman.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand,

          6        this is a technical amendment making his previous

          7        amendment, correct?  All in favor, say aye.  Opposed?

          8             (Verbal vote taken.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries.  Now, we are on

         10        the revision as amended, it is Revision 9,

         11        Commissioner Connor, you have the floor.

         12             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         13        Ladies and gentlemen, I'll tell you that it's with the

         14        great test sense of inadequacy that I rise to speak on

         15        what I think is the single most important issue before

         16        this body and that is whether or not we will accord

         17        the great test measure of protection to religious

         18        liberty of any of the freedoms that we enjoy under the

         19        Constitution.

         20             What could be more precious than preserving the

         21        free exercise of religion?  Our country was founded

         22        because of religious persecution, people who were

         23        seeking the right to freely worship in accordance with

         24        the dictates of their consciences braved the notion to

         25        come to a new world and endure all of the hardships


          1        associated with that in order that they might freely

          2        exercise their religious consciences.

          3             Some of you have suggested that if we tinker with

          4        the language, the sky may fall.  In truth, ladies and

          5        gentlemen, from the beginning of the republic until

          6        1990, the standard that you have before you was the

          7        prevailing standard with respect to the protection of

          8        religious liberty, and the sky did not fall and the

          9        Republic did not flounder.  But when the Supreme Court

         10        of the United States changed its standard of review,

         11        many people felt that the sky did fall, and so, as a

         12        consequence, the broadest array of religious beliefs

         13        in the history of the entire country came together

         14        with one voice and one proposal, the Religious Freedom

         15        Restoration Act, and said of all of our cherished

         16        freedoms, we must act to protect religious liberty by

         17        requiring strict scrutiny and the compelling interest

         18        standard before a governmental entity may encroach

         19        upon that liberty.

         20             Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Native

         21        Americans who scarcely can get together on anything

         22        spoke with one voice on that issue.  This will affect

         23        the life, the lives of 14 million people in the state

         24        of Florida in a positive way, and it'll demonstrate to

         25        you that we honor the sacrifice of brave men and women


          1        who have come before us and who have forfeited their

          2        lives on the field of battle to protect this liberty.

          3        I implore you, I implore you to please support this

          4        proposal.  Thank you.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anybody else want to be

          6        heard?  Commissioner Kogan.

          7             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  Yes, I rise in opposition.

          8        This is just a rehash of what we went through the last

          9        time, as you recall.  I never find that Commissioner

         10        Connor is ever unable to express his will and his

         11        desire to everybody.  You underestimate yourself,

         12        Commissioner Connor, you are very able to do that.

         13        But what I'm telling you all, as I said before, I have

         14        seen no need for this particular amendment to our

         15        Constitution.  We have survived very well under the

         16        United States Constitution and have survived very well

         17        under the Florida Constitution when we are dealing

         18        with religious liberties.

         19             As I recall the last time that this issue came

         20        up, we essentially were talking about zoning matters

         21        that might be affected in regards to this particular

         22        amendment.  As I said before and I'll repeat it again,

         23        our basic freedoms, freedom of speech, religion, the

         24        press, and right to assemble are so important that

         25        it's unnecessary for us to go in and start amending


          1        our Constitution and putting in language that I submit

          2        to you the average voter would not understand.

          3             If you have the average voter pick up this

          4        amendment and read the new portion that we are putting

          5        in right now, they wouldn't have the faintest idea

          6        what you are talking about.  It has a title, which is

          7        feel good, protection of religious freedom.  My God,

          8        anybody is in favor of protecting religious freedom,

          9        but for what it does, I couldn't explain it to you,

         10        and I don't think that the average voter could come

         11        along and explain it to you either.

         12             And I suggest to you, when we are talking about

         13        one of the four basic freedoms of this country that

         14        make this democracy what it is, that we should vote

         15        against this particular amendment.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mathis.

         17             COMMISSIONER MATHIS:  The American Civil

         18        Liberties Union found a need for this proposal, the

         19        Christian Coalition saw a need for this proposal.  A

         20        variety of over 50 to 60 different religious

         21        organizations saw a need for this proposal and joined

         22        together, despite their differences, to support this

         23        proposal.

         24             It is true, I think that the average citizen does

         25        want to protect religious freedom, and there's issue


          1        that this proposal addresses, and these religious

          2        organizations see this.  And they have called on us to

          3        vote and pass this proposal and make this strong

          4        statement in our Constitution, and I say let's give

          5        them the right to vote on it.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Riley.

          7             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  A question for Commissioner

          8        Connor, if I may.  Commissioner, as I understand the

          9        history of this, this is in response to a change in a

         10        federal regulation.

         11             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Federal case law.

         12             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  And they have asked then for

         13        all states to do something similar, or at least to

         14        clarify it on a state level, correct?

         15             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Well, Congress sought to do

         16        that on behalf of the states, and the Court said

         17        Congress couldn't do that for the states, the states

         18        would have to do that for themselves.

         19             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  So, my question is, is there

         20        any reason that that cannot be clarified by the

         21        Legislature in this state, and is it not also true

         22        that it's been clarified in other states by the

         23        Legislature and that no other state has sought the

         24        need to put it in their Constitution?

         25             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Very good question.  Let me


          1        answer the first question, if I may.  Can this not be

          2        accomplished by legislation action in this state, and

          3        the answer is, I think fairly, no, it cannot.  And in

          4        talking with Justice Kogan before about that, here's

          5        the reason why.  The Legislature may not dictate to

          6        the Court the standard of review in which it'll apply

          7        in evaluating the laws that may burden the exercise of

          8        religious liberty without violating the separation of

          9        powers' principle.

         10             The Court historically has been careful in

         11        guarding its turf and its providence in that regard.

         12        It is my understanding from a letter on behalf of

         13        B'nai B'rith, that in other states the state

         14        legislators have made or have passed such laws.  I

         15        cannot speak for what limitations, if any, may exist

         16        in those states with regard to separation of powers.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Any further

         18        discussion?  Commissioner Kogan.

         19             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  This does not burden the

         20        Legislature by passing this particular amendment that

         21        is being proposed, does not burden the free exercise

         22        of religion.  As a matter of fact, if anything, if the

         23        Legislature would pass this, it may very well give

         24        additional rights that people may not perceive that

         25        they have now, but that's not the issue.


          1             The issue is in response to what Commissioner

          2        Connor is saying, this is not an issue where the

          3        Legislature would burden the free exercise of

          4        religion, this is a particular matter that if the

          5        Legislature saw fit, the Legislature could do it.

          6             We are talking now about constitutional

          7        provisions that have been holy and sacred to this

          8        nation for all of these years.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Freidin, that

         10        answered yours, all right.  You have used up all of

         11        your time.  Okay, take one minute, you have used all

         12        of your time on the first time around.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Ladies and gentlemen,

         14        there's no magic to this standard of view, Justice

         15        Kogan has applied it many times, he's applied it to

         16        protect abortion rights and privacy rights, for

         17        example.  Where he said that the State could not act

         18        in the absence of a compelling interest or in the case

         19        where a compelling interest is required, the State was

         20        required to use the least restrictive means in the

         21        furtherance of that interest.

         22             All we ask in this proposal is that we ratchet up

         23        the standard of review for the protection of religious

         24        liberty to the highest standard that the Court uses in

         25        guarding other liberties, according to Floridians,


          1        under the Constitution.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Ready to vote?  Unlock the

          3        machine and let's vote.

          4             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Has everybody voted?  Lock

          6        the machine and announce the vote.

          7             READING CLERK:  Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,

          8        Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is defeated.  All right.

         10        We move to Revision 10.

         11             READING CLERK:  Revision 10, miscellaneous and

         12        technical revisions.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         14             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I think

         15        there's an amendment on the desk that responds to

         16        Commissioner Barkdull's suggestion that we term this a

         17        clarifying, conforming, correcting and technical

         18        rather than miscellaneous.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  I better have it

         20        read.

         21             READING CLERK:  By Commissioner Mills, on Page 1,

         22        Line 12, delete that line and insert clarifying,

         23        conforming, correcting and technical revisions.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  All in favor of

         25        the amendment, say aye.  Opposed like sign.


          1             (Verbal vote taken.)

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Amendment is adopted.

          3        Commissioner Mills on Revision 10.  Incidentally, this

          4        one does include the three that we moved over here

          5        from the judicial, which are the three military

          6        proposals that are also in this revision, so you will

          7        note.  I don't want everybody to leave, we have still

          8        got to vote.  This is our last round of votes.

          9             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, as you

         10        described earlier, I think most all of these are

         11        unanimous votes, they are technical.  And we would

         12        hope that this gives an opportunity to clean up some

         13        provisions of the Constitution which are basically

         14        clarifying.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Anybody want to

         16        discuss this?  If not, unlock the machine and let's

         17        vote.

         18             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Has everybody voted?  It

         20        seems to me that there's one that hasn't voted.  Lock

         21        the machine and announce the vote.

         22             READING CLERK:  Thirty-four yeas, zero nays,

         23        Mr. Chairman.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, we are

         25        concluded.  Commissioner Barkdull.


          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, Members of

          2        the Commission, you are having passed out to you right

          3        now a motion that I'm about to make in reference to

          4        some work of the Style and Drafting Committee between

          5        now and when we would come back in May.  Mr. Chairman,

          6        have you received one?

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I did.  And would you read

          8        it?

          9             READING CLERK:  Proposed order of appearance of

         10        revisions on ballot.  Natural Resources, Education,

         11        Judiciary State Courts, Cabinet Restructure --

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, no, what it is is that

         14        he's moving that the Committee on Style and Drafting

         15        be authorized to review the Commission's final

         16        document and make necessary title amendment, technical

         17        and grammatical corrections that do not change the

         18        substance of any proposal prior to the delivery to the

         19        Secretary of State.

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  This is a similar

         21        proposal that, as I understand, the Senate uses in

         22        connection with their budget process in which we used

         23        at the conclusion of the Commission 20 years ago, in

         24        order that when we come in here in May, that these

         25        scribner matters will be taken care of.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand

          2        that?  This would be scribner's errors that could be

          3        corrected by Style and Drafting.  All in favor, say

          4        aye.  Opposed?

          5             (Verbal vote taken.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It's adopted.  Somebody

          7        handed me a proposed order of appearance of revisions

          8        on the ballot, which was the way we voted them, I

          9        guess.  Is that right, Commissioner Mills?

         10             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, there are two

         11        of these that did not pass.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Strike them out,

         13        strike them out.

         14             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  That would be 5(b) and 8.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  5(b) and 8 did not pass.  All

         16        right.  Do you move that?  Does Commissioner Mills,

         17        Commissioner Mills, do you move the adoption of this?

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, sir, and I would

         19        solicit any comments.  What this does is, this is

         20        fairly close to the order in which we have been

         21        considering them.  And one of the issues that we in

         22        Style and Drafting discussed was an attempt to have

         23        issues appear to the public that were understandable.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  And the other aspect

         25        of this is, if we find that we have made some drastic


          1        error here in this line up of two-thirds' vote, we

          2        can, in fact, alter that; isn't that correct?

          3             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  So, all in favor

          5        of the proposed order of appearance on the ballot --

          6        Commissioner Smith.

          7             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I

          8        just want you to consider, Mr. Chairman, and the

          9        Chairman of Style and Drafting, do we really want to

         10        do this right now.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The reason that, what I think

         12        he's saying is that we won't be meeting again, and we

         13        could, if you like, if we didn't do anything else at

         14        that last meeting, we could adopt this at that last

         15        meeting by 22 votes.  No, Commissioner Barkdull says

         16        that we cannot under the rules.

         17             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Let me just say this then.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yeah, let's do it now because

         19        I'm told by Billy that --

         20             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I would have no problem with

         21        doing it, except for the 25 rule, in other words, the

         22        two-thirds'.  If we are going to waive the rule so

         23        that we can move forward, but we haven't had a chance

         24        to think about this.  So, I don't mind giving them

         25        temporary authority to move forward, but I don't want


          1        to have to come back and get 25 votes to move, let's

          2        say, basic rights down to the end or something.

          3             I don't know, I haven't thought about it.  And I

          4        want a chance to think about it before I have to

          5        muster 25 votes to move one that I think is going to,

          6        you know, because of strategy, we want to have higher

          7        or lower.  That's all I am saying.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I don't consider this a big

          9        issue, personally.

         10             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Oh.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But it seems to me what we

         12        are trying to do is get this in some order of finality

         13        pretty much.  And I agree that some people may want to

         14        think about this.

         15             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  All right.  What about

         16        approving it and to change it we need 22 votes instead

         17        of 25 votes?

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think that would require a

         19        waiver of the rules.  I guess you could move to waive

         20        the rules right now, I don't know if you would like to

         21        do that.

         22             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I move that we waive the

         23        rules and go ahead and adopt this today.  And if we

         24        want to change the order, that we need 22 votes to

         25        change the order instead of two-thirds'.


          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

          2        Barkdull, do you have any objection to that?

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I would like to speak in

          4        objection to it.  We have got a Style and Drafting

          5        Committee that's done an awful lot of work, and I

          6        think we have got to give some deference to their

          7        suggestions.  And I don't see anything, at this point,

          8        this is generally the order that we have had them in

          9        and I think we ought to leave it and adopt what the

         10        Chairman of Style and Drafting has recommended.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well, Mr. Chairman, in the

         13        family spirit that we have adopted here today.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes, but we got dysfunctional

         15        there on one thing.

         16             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, but I think we have

         17        returned now and I think that we are all proud to be

         18        part of this fairly.  And to me, if a waiver of the

         19        rules, if it takes 22 votes to change it, that doesn't

         20        really bother me because that would be a fairly

         21        substantial preference.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  What is before you

         23        now, if you will listen, what is proposed is that we

         24        adopt, if we adopt this, first we'll have to adopt

         25        this rule change by waiver of the rules in effect,


          1        that at the last meeting, upon a 22-vote affirmative

          2        vote, the order that is in this proposal by Style and

          3        Drafting, assuming we adopt it, could be changed,

          4        instead of 25 votes it would take 22 votes.  And that

          5        is the motion made by Commissioner Smith and Chairman

          6        Mills agrees to that.  Commissioner Barkdull.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, then, that vote is

          8        a vote to change the rules, which is 25 votes.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  That is 25 votes,

         10        that's correct.  It takes a two-thirds' vote to do

         11        this.  You are going to have to get 25 votes now, so

         12        pay attention.  We'll first vote on Commissioner

         13        Smith's motion to waive the rules or to change the

         14        rules so that on the last meeting on this item only

         15        you can, with 22 votes, alter the way these form --

         16        not the way but the order in which these appear on the

         17        ballot, okay.  Everybody ready?  All right.

         18             Open the machine and let's vote.  This is on --

         19        excuse me, close the machine.  Is everybody going to

         20        pay attention on this, or are we going to walk around?

         21        Commissioner Langley, do you have something?

         22             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  You asked if we can walk

         23        around and vote, yes, and chew gum, yes.  It's

         24        remarkable.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, you were also making so


          1        much noise that nobody else could hear over here.

          2        That's why I asked, I thought you wanted to speak.

          3             Now, who wants to speak to the motion that's been

          4        made?  The motion is solely related to the order in

          5        which these revisions appear on the ballot.  The

          6        motion is that this order in which they appear on the

          7        ballot can be altered at our last meeting by 22 votes

          8        of the Commission.  Is that clearly what the motion

          9        is, Commissioner Smith?

         10             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now, on that

         12        motion only, Commissioner Sundberg.

         13             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Has any motion been made

         14        to adopt this order to begin with?

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are going to change the

         16        rule before we do it.

         17             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  All right.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Or I mean, not change it, one

         19        or the other.  Anyone want to speak to the motion?

         20        Commissioner Evans.

         21             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  Question.  Are these going

         22        to be renumbered accordingly, so that Firearms is now

         23        8 and Miscellaneous is 9?

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.  They will be

         25        renumbered to reflect the proper numbers.  All right.


          1        Now, let's vote on the motion to waive the rules as it

          2        relates to the order in which they appear on the

          3        ballot for the last meeting.  Unlock the machine at

          4        this time and we'll do it again.

          5             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Lock the machine

          7        and announce the vote.

          8             READING CLERK:  Thirty-one yeas, zero nays,

          9        Mr. Chairman.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  It is done.  Now

         11        we have to adopt a motion by Commissioner Mills on the

         12        order that's presented to you, which is No. 1, Natural

         13        Resources Conservation; No. 2, Education; No. 3,

         14        Judiciary State Courts; No. 4, Cabinet Restructure;

         15        No. 5, Basic Rights; No. 6, Local Government; No. 7,

         16        Elections; No. 8, Firearms; and No. 10, Miscellaneous.

         17        No, we changed 8, excuse me.  Eight, all right.  That

         18        is the motion as it relates to the order at this time,

         19        which can be amended by 22 votes at final meeting.

         20        All in favor, say aye.  Opposed?

         21             (Verbal vote taken.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It carries, it is now

         23        adopted.  Okay.  We are now through.  Commissioner

         24        Connor.  Well, we are not through.

         25             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I rise to a point of order,


          1        Mr. Chairman.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Rise.  You are recognized.

          3             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  It's my understanding, in

          4        accordance with the provisions of Rule 1.that 17,

          5        members who are in the chamber are obliged under the

          6        rules to vote.  And it has come to my attention that

          7        one of our members, Commissioner Rundle, was in the

          8        Chamber, felt conflicted about 187 and did not vote.

          9        I respectfully request that we revote on 187 so that

         10        everybody can be on record on that proposal.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  No, that's not a valid point

         12        of order.  A person other than a Chair does not have

         13        to vote.  An abstention is in effect on the vote the

         14        same as a negative vote.  It isn't doesn't require

         15        them to vote, it says they should vote.  It doesn't

         16        require it like, as Commissioner Langley pointed out,

         17        in effect, that I had to vote on these proposals as

         18        Chair.

         19             I didn't have to vote on anything but the final

         20        thing.  We didn't enforce that.  If we are going to do

         21        it, we can go back and vote on every one of them again

         22        just about because there were people in the chamber

         23        who didn't vote quite a few times.  I'm going to rule

         24        that point out of order.

         25             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I simply -- I mean, I think


          1        everybody can appreciate the position that I'm in, it

          2        failed by one vote.  We placed great emphasis on the

          3        rules early this morning.  I thought that they applied

          4        with equal vigor in the afternoon, but I understand

          5        the Chair's ruling.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let me tell you, we all lost

          7        one too.  And we are willing to let's quit talking

          8        about that and get on with some good stuff here.

          9        Commissioners, I think that we -- I need to tell you

         10        this, our next meeting will be on Tuesday, May 5th.

         11        On the evening before, my wife and I will be hosting a

         12        party at my home, I look forward to seeing you all

         13        there and your spouses or significant others.  We have

         14        had a great day today in many ways.  Some people are

         15        disappointed, I'm disappointed as it relates to one

         16        particular item.  And I'm sure others of you share

         17        disappointment for other items.  Some of you are very

         18        happy.

         19             Most of us should be very happy for the quality

         20        of the work that we have done.  And I therefore want

         21        you to know that your service and sacrifice and time

         22        and efforts are greatly appreciated by, certainly by

         23        me and the people of the state of Florida.

         24             I also want to thank Commissioner Jennings.

         25        Commissioner Jennings, I would like to thank you on


          1        behalf of the Commission for your service to us, but

          2        also that you so unselfishly allowed the Commission,

          3        as President of the Senate to use these facilities,

          4        and most particularly allowed us to use your staff.

          5             Her staff defines excellence and they are true

          6        professionals, they are the greatest group that I have

          7        worked with.  And, now, wait a minute.

          8             (Applause.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And if Johnny Gillespi and

         10        the Senate engrossing staff, if you are still watching

         11        on TV, even though Commissioner Langley hasn't said

         12        anything lately, you are still watching up there, we

         13        want you to know that we have a special thanks for the

         14        help of you people who have worked so hard and your

         15        engrossing staff and keeping us up to speed.  With

         16        that, Commissioner Barkdull, I would entertain a

         17        motion.

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I move we recess until

         19        nine a.m. on Tuesday, March 5th, 1998 -- May 5th.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Without objection, we are in

         21        recess.

         22             (Session concluded.)





          1                           CERTIFICATE

              STATE OF FLORIDA:
              COUNTY OF LEON:
                        I, MONA L. WHIDDON, and KRISTEN L. BENTLEY, Court
          5   Reporters, certify that I was authorized to and did
              stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that
          6   the transcript is a true and complete record of my
              stenographic notes.
                        DATED this ______ day of ____________, 1998.


         10                      ___________________________________
                                 MONA L. WHIDDON


         13                      __________________________________
                                 KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
         14                      Court Reporters
                                 Division of Administrative Hearings
         15                      1230 Apalachee Parkway
                                 Tallahassee, Florida  32399-3060
         16                      (850) 488-9675   Suncom 278-9675
                                 Fax Filing (850) 921-6847