State Seal CRCLogo

Meeting Proceedings for October 21, 1997


1                          STATE OF FLORIDA





6                         COMMISSION MEETING




10   DATE:                  October 21, 1997

11   TIME:                  Commenced at  8:45 a.m.
                            Concluded at  9:30 a.m.
     PLACE:                 The Senate Chamber
13                          The Capitol
                            Tallahassee, Florida
15                  Court Reporter
                    Division of Administrative Hearings
16                  The DeSoto Building
                    1230 Apalachee Parkway
17                  Tallahassee, Florida









1                             APPEARANCES


       H. T. SMITH
       PAUL WEST



1                             PROCEEDINGS

2             (Roll taken and recorded electronically.)





7             SECRETARY BLANTON:  A quorum is present,

8        Mr. Chairman.

9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The meeting will come

10        to order, please.  Please come to order.  Commissioner

11        Thompson, would you come and give us the invocation this

12        morning, sir?

13             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Let's bow our heads, please.

14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Please rise.

15             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Our Father, as we approach

16        this beautiful and gorgeous day that you have given us, we

17        ask that you slow us down a little bit, that you help us

18        think about the things that are important in our lives and

19        in our country, the things that are important to our

20        fellow man.  We ask that you slow us down a little bit and

21        we listen a little more and we learn a little bit more and

22        we learn a little bit more compassion.

23             We thank you for this great honor you have bestowed

24        upon us.  We ask that you help us treat this position that

25        you have put us in with the kind of honor that is expected

          1        of us.  In all that we do, we seek your guidance and your
2        love.  Amen.

3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Would you lead us in

4        the pledge?

5             (Pledge of allegiance was said.)

6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull, do you

7        have a report from the rules committee?

8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, and

9        members of the Commission, you should have on your desk a

10        proposed conflict rule which is the result of the meeting

11        of the rules committee yesterday and this morning.  I'll

12        give you an opportunity to read it and then we'll move it

13        on for discussion.

14             SECRETARY BLANTON:  None of us have it.

15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody have it?  We don't

16        have it up here.

17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's on the way.

18             SECRETARY BLANTON:  The reading clerk needs it.

19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I believe the Reading Clerk needs

20        one.

21             MR. BUZZETT:  Here you go.

22             SECRETARY BLANTON:  I need one too, Billy.  Thank

23        you.  We'll get it in a minute.

24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'll ask the Reading Clerk to



2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Will you please read the proposed

3        rule?

4             READING CLERK:  Rule 1.17, Attendance and voting.

5        Unless a commission member has submitted a written notice

6        provided in Rule 1.18, every Commission member shall be

7        within the Commission's chamber during its sessions and

8        shall vote on each question except as follows.  If the

9        vote is on a question which would inure to a

10        Commissioner's special private gain or loss; which he or

11        she knows would inure to the special private gain or loss

12        of any principal by whom the Commissioner is retained; or

13        to the parent organization or subsidiary of a corporate

14        principal by which the Commssioner is retained or which

15        the Commissioner knows would inure to the special gain or

16        loss of a relative or business association of the

17        Commissioner, the Commissioner must file with the

18        Secretary, prior to or at the time of the vote, a

19        statement disclosing a conflict of interest which

20        discloses the nature of his or her interest, and refrain

21        from voting.  If a Commissioner later discovers that a

22        conflict existed, within 15 days, the Commissioner shall

23        file with the Secretary, a statement disclosing the

24        conflict and the nature of his or her interest.  For

25        purposes of the vote result, the subsequent filing of a


						of a conflict of interest will be treated in

2        the same manner as a change of vote in Rule 5.2.

3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That completes a reading in

4        full of the proposed amendment to Rule 1.17, and I would

5        now move its adoption by the Commission.

6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It has been moved that we adopt

7        as an amended Rule 1.17 as read by the Reading Clerk.  Is

8        there any discussion?

9             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I might point out that this

10        is basically the Senate rule, and there is attached to

11        your material, or will be, an explanation by Senate staff

12        as to what they believe as to how you would approach this

13        as a conflict.

14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Sundberg.

15             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  May I address a question to

16        Comissioner Barkdull?  Commissioner Barkdull, does the

17        term "special private gain or loss," does that mean that

18        you or your principal or any of the prohibited class would

19        be affected by the proposal in a way different from the

20        public in general?

21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  If your principal or relative

22        would have a special benefit that would be different, you

23        say, but if it's -- we have got the situation where it

24        would be the same, or when you mentioned "different," in

25        what form do you mean that?  Because, obviously, if we


						a change, say, in a -- you have a minor child that's,

2        say, 17, for instance, and there's a change that will

3        affect all 17-year-olds, I don't think that's a special

4        situation for your family.

5             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Well, that's what I mean.

6        For example, my -- the most likely, you know, I'm employed

7        by an institution of higher education.  If in fact the

8        regulation would operate on all institutions of higher

9        education in the same fashion, I assume, and then would be

10        a benefit or detriment, I assume that's not a special

11        benefit and; hence, I would not have a conflict, correct?

12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That's correct.

13             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Thank you.

14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Freiden.

15             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  May I ask a question of

16        Commissioner Barkdull?

17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes.  I should have just had him

18        yield for questions, and Commissioner Freiden will

19        inquire.

20             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Commissioner Barkdull, could

21        you explain, please, for those of us in law firms, how

22        this rule impacts on the ability of our partners to, or

23        associates, to come before the Commission to advocate

24        positions?

25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I think it would depend on


						they were advocating a position that was for the

2        benefit of a particular client of the law firm, say, a

3        particular condominium association or whether they were

4        advocating something that would impact the entire

5        condominium industry in the State of Florida.

6             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Well, I guess the question is

7        if there would be some special gain either to the member

8        of our law firm or to the client who the member of the law

9        firm was representing?

10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It would still be my opinion,

11        in that situation, if the lawyer from your firm was going

12        to gain a fee which you would benefit in, that you would

13        be disqualified.

14             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  So I guess then, could I

15        conclude from that, that under this rule a lawyer from my

16        law firm could -- who was being paid by a client to

17        advocate an issue before the CRC would, if one of our

18        lawyers accepted that representation, that that would

19        disqualify me under this rule from participating in that

20        issue?

21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I think it certainly would if

22        you would participate in the fee.

23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Do you yield to

24        Commissioner Barnett?

25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes.


						BARNETT:  Just a follow-up on that,

2        Judge Barkdull.  If an issue is before the Commission that

3        we know would affect clients of the law firm although the

4        firm is not retained to represent the clients on that

5        issue, there's no compensation, there's no fee

6        arrangement, but these are clients of the firm and we

7        know, based on knowledge of our relationship with them, it

8        would affect them, would we be precluded from voting in

9        those circumstances?

10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I don't think so.

11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you yield to Commissioner

12        Nabors?

13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

14             COMMISSIONER NABORS:  Mr. Barkdull, I don't read

15        this -- and I read it quickly, but it really is a

16        disclosure, it doesn't decline you from voting, does it?

17        It requires a disclosure, isn't that the way --

18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It in one instance requires

19        that you do vote.

20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It says "refrain from voting."

21             COMMISSIONER NABORS:  Let me give you a real-world

22        example.  We represent a lot of port authorities.  Not a

23        lot, but several, some of which are affected by this issue

24        of tax exemption that was before our committee yesterday.

25        It's not a particular authority, it's a group of


						.  And we represent other special districts

2        that may be affected by that; would that be a special gain

3        to my firm on that issue?

4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I don't think that you would

5        be because you represent the entire -- represent a class,

6        and there's nothing that a member of your firm is

7        advocating, as Commissioner Freiden pointed out; your

8        example is not the same as hers.

9             COMMISSIONER NABORS:  I mean, if anybody is

10        interested to know, we represent a lot of local

11        governments, that's our primary practice.  A lot of issues

12        will affect them as a class, but it won't affect --

13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, when nobody in the firm

14        has been hired to lobby that particular purpose, I don't

15        think you would be impacted.  But if you are impacted

16        financially by a proposition, I think you would be.

17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you yield to Commissioner

18        Henderson?

19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

20             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

21        Mr. Barkdull, I have a couple of instances that I would

22        like to inquire about in an abundance of caution before

23        hand.  I am retained by a corporation which is not a

24        business, it is a public charity, and it does not gain

25        financially in any way by any action that we might do, but


						do employ lobbyists.  Is it -- should I be with --

2        should I be abstaining on matters before this Commission

3        by which my company takes a position?

4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Your only distinction is that

5        you are a non-profit company.

6             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  That's right.

7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  And other people are

8        for-profit, so personally, I think you would be -- have to

9        abstain.

10             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  That is a very interesting

11        question.

12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, Commissioner Barkdull, is

13        it not appropriate in individual cases for the member to

14        seek an opinion of the rules committee on whether this

15        rule -- what it does in an individual case?

16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Certainly, they can make an

17        inquiry of the rules committee on any subject matter that

18        would be withi the scope of the rules and we would give an

19        opinion, but that's my personal opinion.  I don't think

20        that you can draw a distinction between non-profit and

21        profit.

22             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Except that we don't make --

23        there's no business relationship.  That is a big

24        difference.

25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  My understanding, sir, that


						indicated to me that you were compensated by these

2        people.

3             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  All right, well, there is

4        the difference.  Well, I will be seeking some kind of an

5        opinion, I guess.  The other -- on behalf of Commissioner

6        Evans and I, we will ask the relative question, and that

7        is that some of y'all are in the judiciary or have been in

8        the judiciary and so let's say might be affected by the

9        retirement age issue or some of the other things.  Those

10        of us who are spouses of acting judges, should we be

11        abstaining on matters relating to the judiciary?

12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You get a divorce and then you

13        can vote.

14             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Okay, that's right.

15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That is an interesting

16        proposition.  All right.  Commissioner Zack has been

17        jumping up and down here.  He's got a big question for

18        you.  Do you yield?

19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes.

20             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  Commissioner Barkdull, if there's

21        a change in an issue such as sovereign immunity, does

22        every lawyer in this chamber have to pull every partner in

23        their law firms to determine whether or not some client of

24        theirs will derive a benefit as a result of that change

25        which that lawyer will in some way share in?


						BARKDULL:  I don't think so, if you

2        don't know at the present time of any potential conflict

3        or a conflict that's in your office.

4             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  Well, it may be a common benefit.

5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  On that issue, Commissioner

6        Barkdull, isn't it true that there's nothing that's going

7        to change in the ongoing cases, even if the Constitution

8        were changed?  The law that's applicable at the time would

9        still apply to the case that you have in the office?

10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I think that would

11        depend on how the amendment and the schedule was drawn.

12        Normally constitutional amendments are only prospective.

13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Correct.  Commissioner Thompson.

14             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  I just wanted to ask a

15        question and maybe try to shed a little light on this, if

16        I could.  Judge, I know in our rules committee

17        deliberations we had several requirements, and one of them

18        is we wanted to track the language in the statutes that

19        apply to the Legislature and also we wanted to be careful

20        about the appearance of conflicts and so forth, but that

21        legislative language, folks, has been around a long time.

22        And I think we are very similar to legislators here, in

23        that we come, Commissioner Sundberg, from special

24        interests.  We come from an advocating or an advocate

25        position here, and that's okay so long as what we do


						put money straight into our pockets.

2             For example, if you use the universities, I mean, all

3        of the money and whatever you can do in behalf of the

4        university system, that's just fine, that's okay.  But if

5        you did something that only applied to your employer,

6        which was going to be very hard in a document like the

7        Florida Constitution, then you are not okay and you have

8        got a conflict.  As Mr. Hawkes points out, these

9        requirements have been applied to the Legislature a long

10        time.  You have got to have some real special interest

11        that goes straight to you.  If you are in the banking

12        business and you are in the Legislature and you vote to

13        increase the cap on the usury laws, that applies to all of

14        the banks in the state, not just the bank that you work

15        for.  And the same goes for the judiciary and so forth.

16             So I think this has worked very well in the

17        legislative arena, and you are going to see that it's

18        going to work very well here.  Now the problem of your law

19        partners is one we considered in our firm and several of

20        us are in this situation where you have a lot of clients.

21        And what I have told mine is, first of all, in the

22        legislative arena, it is not some kind of a legislative

23        rule or whatever that keeps your law partners from

24        lobbying you, not even a Florida Statute; it is the

25        cannons of legal ethics that keeps you from doing that.


						the cannons of legal ethics says that you can't be

2        in the legislature in a firm where those attorneys come

3        and lobby you.

4             It used to be done right here in this town and it was

5        a big deal to get a member of the firm into the

6        legislators, and everybody recognized that that is a

7        built-in conflict of interest.  But you don't have that

8        kind of problem here so long as you just tell your law

9        partners, Don't lobby me about this.  But there's nothing

10        wrong talking to your employer or your employer, Mr.

11        Henderson, about what's good for Florida education or

12        what's good for the environment in Florida or me to talk

13        to any of my clients about that.

14             But when you come in here you do what Mr. Douglass

15        has said from the time he talked to you about your

16        appointment, and that is you vote your conscience and you

17        be honest about what you want to do.  And you will see all

18        of us having to vote against sometimes what our employers

19        and clients want to do.  And so, what I'm asking you, I

20        guess, in the form of a question, Commissioner Barkdull,

21        is, don't you think that system has worked pretty good and

22        don't you think that's why we put this specific language

23        here?

24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir, I see you have got

25        some of the House rules in there.


						DOUGLASS:  Very well stated.  That should

2        answer most questions.  One thing, we are commissioners

3        and we have got to remember that, you are no longer Judge,

4        he's Commissioner Barkdull, and you are not Mr. or

5        Mrs. anymore, you are Commissioner.  With that,

6        Commissioner Wetherington, do you have a question for

7        Judge Barkdull?

8             COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON:  I have a question.  In

9        light of the fact that conflict of interest is always a

10        very murky area, am I correct in determining that if a

11        commissioner, in his or her own mind, concludes to their

12        satisfaction they have a conflict of interest on a given

13        issue, then they would not be required to vote on that

14        issue?

15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's correct.  You can -- if

16        you really think you have got a conflict of interest --

17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  If you really think you have

18        got one, then you don't have to vote.

19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  But you will be recorded when you

20        abstain as voting no.

21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, you realize that is a no

22        vote.

23             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Abstaining is not to vote.

24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  I thought that would get a

25        question.


						BARKDULL:  The reason it's a no vote,

2        it's not in the rule that it's recorded that way, but the

3        reason that it's a no vote is to move the matter forward

4        takes a majority of the Commission.  So if you are not

5        here to cast a vote on the affirmative side, obviously it

6        is -- the impact of it is as though you voted no.  And the

7        same thing is true on final passage when you have got to

8        have 22 votes; if you abstain and don't vote, the impact

9        of it is a no vote.

10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you yield to Commissioner

11        Langley?

12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Certainly.

13             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  There's no point in discussing

14        that.  You know, that's the way you perceive it, but

15        that's not the way you record it.  But just another

16        thought, Senator -- pardon me, Commissioner Scott and I in

17        conversation, you realize that we don't pass anything.

18        All you vote when you vote yes on these things is, yes, I

19        want the people of Florida to have the opportunity to vote

20        on this issue; we can't pass anything.  So I wonder really

21        if all of this conflict means anything, because all you

22        are really saying is, Hey, this is a good idea, why don't

23        we see if the people of Florida want to put this in the

24        Constitution.  We can't pass it.

25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Langley, I can tell


						that, probably what you say is fairly technically

2        correct.  But if you don't believe this conflict rule is

3        important, read the paper tomorrow.  Commissioner

4        Barkdull.

5             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I would move the matter.

6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  It's been moved.  Any

7        further discussion or questions of the Chairman of the

8        Committee?  If not, all of those in favor of adoption of

9        the rule, say aye.

10             (Members verbally vote.)

11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Opposed, like sign.

12             (Members verbally vote.)

13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Carries by two-thirds vote; the

14        rule is amended.

15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, I now move the

16        amendment to Rule 2 point --

17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Eleven.

18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  -- 11.  Which this rule

19        pertains to the conflicting committees and the rule you

20        just passed pertain to conflicts on the floor.

21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is the same rule then?

22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  The same rule, just

23        applicable to committees.

24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Would the Reading Clerk please

25        read the rule?


						CLERK:  Rule 2.11, Committees; proxy voting.

2        Each committee member shall attend all meetings and shall

3        vote on each question except as follows.  If the vote is

4        on a question which would inure to a Commissioner's

5        special private gain or loss; which he or she knows would

6        inure to the special private gain or loss of any principal

7        by whom the Commissioner is retained or to the parent

8        organization or subsidiary of a corporate principal by

9        which the Commissioner is retained; or which the

10        Commissioner knows would inure to the special gain or loss

11        of a relative or business association of the Commissioner,

12        the Commissioner must file with the Secretary, prior to or

13        at the time of the vote, a statement disclosing a conflict

14        of interest which discloses the nature of his or her

15        interest, and refrain from voting.  If a Commissioner

16        later discovers that a conflict existed, within 15 days,

17        the Commissioner shall file with the Secretary, a

18        statement disclosing the conflict and the nature of his or

19        her interest.  For purposes of the vote result, the

20        subsequent filing of a disclosure of a conflict of

21        interest will be treated in the same manner as a change of

22        vote in Rule 5.2.  No member of a committee shall vote by

23        proxy.

24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I move the adoption of the


						to the rule, please.

2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any discussion or any questions?

3             (No response.)

4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All of those in favor of the

5        adoption of the rule, signify by saying aye.

6             (Members verbally voted.)

7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Opposed, like sign.

8             (Members verbally voted.)

9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Carries by two-thirds vote; it is

10        adopted.  Commissioner Barkdull.

11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, members of the

12        Commission, under our present schedule this will be the

13        last full session that we will have during this meeting.

14        We are next scheduled to be here on Wednesday, the 12th of

15        November.  At the conclusion of this meeting we will

16        recess until that time.  I want to call to all of your

17        attention, and particularly the chairmen of the

18        committees, that you have the opportunity to have interim

19        committee meetings between now and then to consider

20        proposals.

21             We need to get proposals out so we'll have matters to

22        discuss on the merits at the November meeting.  And in

23        that regard, to discuss further with it, with you

24        committee chairs, we would like the committee chairs to

25        meet with the Chairman and myself in the conference room


						the Old Capitol where the CRC offices are at 1:00.  I
2        know some of you will have committee meetings scheduled

3        for 1:00, but let your vice-chairman open the meeting and

4        we will be short.

5             But we want to have a chat with all of the committee

6        chairmen at 1:00.  You will be on your own for lunch

7        today, but please, all of you try to attend that, and

8        we'll try to get you out as quick as possible and get to

9        your committee meetings, those that are scheduled this

10        afternoon.  Thank you.

11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Does anybody have any

12        further matters they wish to bring up?  I would like to --

13        excuse me, Commissioner Smith.

14             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

15        Yesterday in the committee, dealing with Declaration of

16        Rights, Article I, a question came up because two

17        proposals came before the committee yesterday, in proposal

18        form.  Rule 2.13 provides that we should have three days,

19        three commission meeting days from the day a proposal is

20        received to act upon it.  Yesterday was a commission day,

21        today is a commission day, and Wednesday the 12th is a

22        commission day.  We had intended, with regard to this

23        issue, the issues involved in those two proposals, to

24        workshop the issue on Wednesday the 12th, so we TP'd the

25        issue, and the question to the Chair is, whether or not,


						regard to this particular rule, in workshopping it or

2        whatever, whether that counts in the three days, because

3        that's, you know, that's the first time it's come up.

4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We have discussed this and

5        figured that it's going to be a problem and we are going

6        to have to waive the rules quite a bit.  Commissioner

7        Barkdull, this is one of the items that we'll discuss with

8        the chairmen at 1:00.  But probably what will be done is

9        the rules committee will make a blanket motion to waive

10        that rule as it relates to items pending before the

11        committees at the next session when we start.  And that

12        would give you the time that you need to go forward.  That

13        rule, we knew was going to be a problem because it -- but

14        it does keep things moving, which has got another point.

15             So I think, if I'm not correct, Commissioner

16        Barkdull, correct me.  I discussed this with the

17        Secretary, and she agrees that this is what we'll have to

18        do.

19             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  One

20        quick question, the second issue that came up was, as you

21        know, with regard to consideration of the public

22        proposals, Commissioner Scott provided for us some

23        categories which we adopted for referral to respective

24        committees.  Under the particular categories, one in

25        particular that relates to our committee, a specific


						proposal did not receive the ten votes, but it's

2        within the category that was approved and accepted and

3        referred.

4             If by November 26th, November 25th being the last day

5        for individual commissioners to submit proposals, no one

6        submits that specific proposal; on the 26th, is that

7        particular proposal dead?  And, you know, I want to ask it

8        publicly because we looked around and there's a couple of

9        other committees that have the same problem.  You can deal

10        with it in the committee meetings or whatever, but I

11        wanted to state it publicly so we can be thinking about

12        this and get an answer to it.

13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anything that's not acted on or

14        introduced, rather, before the Commission on that date,

15        that will be the end of the proposals.  There is nothing

16        to prevent people from amending existing motions or

17        existing proposals or whatever else for any reason.  So I

18        don't think this will be a big problem, but this was one

19        of the reasons that we were not too enamored with the idea

20        of having general subjects because, when you do that, you

21        don't want to eliminate those just by virtue of a

22        technicality.  And I don't think the ruling of the Chair

23        will do that.  Is that confusing enough or is that clear

24        enough?  Commissioner Freiden.

25             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Mr. Chairman, at the time that


						took those votes at our last meeting, I think that many
2        of us were under the impression that if we voted for a

3        general category on Commissioner Scott's list that we then

4        didn't need to vote for the specific proposals.

5        Therefore, I think we passed over, potentially passed

6        over -- like, for example, I noted on the list of actual

7        proposals that came out was the initiative issue.  On

8        Commissioner Scott's list of proposals it was a general

9        thing having to do with constitutional amendment

10        initiative process, but on the list of public proposals

11        the only thing that was there was something having to do

12        with legislative initiative.

13             So I was wondering if it would be possible for you to

14        ask the staff to compare Senator Scott's list, which was

15        passed in toto to the actual proposals and to provide us

16        with a list of any issues that aren't covered so that we

17        as commissioners can file commissioner proposals if we

18        think it's appropriate?

19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, we'll certainly do that.

20        It is a little staff work that's unnecessary.  If you have

21        got something that's not there, introduce it.  That's the

22        reason that we had the public proposals done specifically

23        was because they were specific.  The general items can be

24        introduced by any person any time that's a member of this

25        Commission.  And if you feel that one wasn't done, then


						have somebody draft it and file it.  Commissioner

2        Barkdull, do you yield to Commissioner Langley?

3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes.

4             COMMISSIONER LANGLEY:  Mr. Chairman, I think you have

5        confused us all.  It was our intent, as raised by the

6        Commissioner, that when we voted for those generals, we

7        did not have to vote for the specifics when they came up.

8        And what Commissioner Smith raised was one of those didn't

9        get enough votes, well, maybe we said it's already there

10        under Scott's motion, and Scott's motion had almost

11        unanimous vote of this body.  So it would be my

12        interpretation of that, that those matters are before

13        Commissioner Smith's committee right now and need not have

14        a specific proposal.

15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We'll take that up in the rules

16        committee.  I think we are making a lot about nothing.

17        And I really think that what we'll do, if you really want

18        to do this, is we will have bill drafting take the general

19        statements that were made by Senator Scott and just draft

20        a bunch of proposals and propose them.  But that would not

21        be dealing with the public proposals, and that's what we

22        were trying to do at the last meeting.  Now what we are

23        going to do is proceed to our committee meetings and see

24        how this works.

25             If any of you feel that there's not something that


						-- that has been proposed that should be, just notify

2        the staff and the bill drafting and they will draw the

3        proposal.  Otherwise, we are going to be dealing in the

4        dark in these committees.  You are going to deal with

5        specific items before the committee, not general items.

6        Commissioner Barkdull.

7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'm prepared to make a motion

8        to recess.  I would like to make a comment that this

9        Commission yesterday had before it all of the public

10        proposals that had not received ten votes at the last

11        meeting, so there was a second opportunity to specifically

12        move matters yesterday, and that's why they were all

13        listed in your pamphlet and on the calendar.

14             If there's nothing else then, Mr. Chair, I would move

15        that we recess until the hour of 9:00 a.m. on Wednesday,

16        November the 12th.

17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  That would mean that

18        we would not meet tomorrow; is that correct?

19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That's my understanding,

20        unless some committee wants to schedule a committee

21        meeting, we would not have a session tomorrow.

22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Of course, the committees can

23        schedule at any time in the interim, but they have to be

24        here in Tallahassee, the meetings do.  All right.  All in

25        favor, please say aye.



2             (Members verbally voted.)

3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We will adjourn.

4             (Session concluded.)
























              STATE OF FLORIDA:
              COUNTY OF LEON:
                        I, MONA L. WHIDDON, Court Reporter, certify that I
5   was authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing
    proceedings and that the transcript is a true and complete
6   record of my stenographic notes.

7             DATED this ______ day of ____________, 1997.


10                      MONA L. WHIDDON
                        Court Reporter
11                      Division of Administrative Hearings
                        1230 Apalachee Parkway
12                      Tallahassee, Florida  32399-3060
                        (904) 488-9675   Suncom 278-9675
13				(904) 921-6847